Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

I mean, really. If you can withstand the variance, the games are incredible. In my last two sessions alone, I have seen:

a. A player call two bets preflop, two bets on the flop, a bet on turn to snag a 3rd six with Q6o

b. A player withstand 3 bets on the flop, 2 bets on the turn to hit the straight with QTo on a board of J65AK

c. A player play 3-6o in a pot raised preflop, hit a six on flop and then withstand a raise on flop to his a 3 on the turn.

d. A player who raises with every hand, literally for 1 hour straight.

e. A flop taken 10 handed.

All hands were at 20/40

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

Most can't withstand the variance that's why there is 10 2-5NL pros in AC for every 1 limit pro.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

I love the 10/20 in AC, esp. at the Borg. Took it for 45 BB this weekend. After coming back from Vegas (where MLHE seemed non-existant, w/ the exception of one tough 10/20 at Mirage and the shorthanded 15/30s at Bellagio) and playing in N. Cali. last year, I think AC is the best place to play MLHE. There's always a 10/20 and 20/40 in town, and almost always beatable.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

have you seen the 1/2NL at Ceasar's in AC?

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, really. If you can withstand the variance, the games are incredible. In my last two sessions alone, I have seen:

a. A player call two bets preflop, two bets on the flop, a bet on turn to snag a 3rd six with Q6o

b. A player withstand 3 bets on the flop, 2 bets on the turn to hit the straight with QTo on a board of J65AK

c. A player play 3-6o in a pot raised preflop, hit a six on flop and then withstand a raise on flop to his a 3 on the turn.

d. A player who raises with every hand, literally for 1 hour straight.

e. A flop taken 10 handed.

All hands were at 20/40

[/ QUOTE ]

Try 10/20, a guy defended his big blind with a 3-4o heads up to my button steal with a K-8s, and proceeded to call me all the way down to my river bet when he hit a four on the flop.

This past weekend I got my pocket rockets UTG cold called by the player immediately to my left who held an 8-4 because it was suited. It went heads up to the flop where he caught 4. He called me all the way down to the river where he caught another, 4, and raised my river bet.

I look at it this way: When I return next weekend, there will be equally bad players, who will help me pay off my mortgage on my boardwalk condo, which I won the down payment for in the 10/20 and 20/40 games in Atlantic City.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I mean, really. If you can withstand the variance, the games are incredible. In my last two sessions alone, I have seen:

a. A player call two bets preflop, two bets on the flop, a bet on turn to snag a 3rd six with Q6o

b. A player withstand 3 bets on the flop, 2 bets on the turn to hit the straight with QTo on a board of J65AK

c. A player play 3-6o in a pot raised preflop, hit a six on flop and then withstand a raise on flop to his a 3 on the turn.

d. A player who raises with every hand, literally for 1 hour straight.

e. A flop taken 10 handed.

All hands were at 20/40

[/ QUOTE ]

Try 10/20, a guy defended his big blind with a 3-4o heads up to my button steal with a K-8s, and proceeded to call me all the way down to my river bet when he hit a four on the flop.

This past weekend I got my pocket rockets UTG cold called by the player immediately to my left who held an 8-4 because it was suited. It went heads up to the flop where he caught 4. He called me all the way down to the river where he caught another, 4, and raised my river bet.

I look at it this way: When I return next weekend, there will be equally bad players, who will help me pay off my mortgage on my boardwalk condo, which I won the down payment for in the 10/20 and 20/40 games in Atlantic City.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were you at the 10/20 main game in the corner of the high limit room on Wednesday nite? There was someone at my table who got his Aces cracked at least 4 times w/hands that you described.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I mean, really. If you can withstand the variance, the games are incredible. In my last two sessions alone, I have seen:

a. A player call two bets preflop, two bets on the flop, a bet on turn to snag a 3rd six with Q6o

b. A player withstand 3 bets on the flop, 2 bets on the turn to hit the straight with QTo on a board of J65AK

c. A player play 3-6o in a pot raised preflop, hit a six on flop and then withstand a raise on flop to his a 3 on the turn.

d. A player who raises with every hand, literally for 1 hour straight.

e. A flop taken 10 handed.

All hands were at 20/40

[/ QUOTE ]

Try 10/20, a guy defended his big blind with a 3-4o heads up to my button steal with a K-8s, and proceeded to call me all the way down to my river bet when he hit a four on the flop.

This past weekend I got my pocket rockets UTG cold called by the player immediately to my left who held an 8-4 because it was suited. It went heads up to the flop where he caught 4. He called me all the way down to the river where he caught another, 4, and raised my river bet.

I look at it this way: When I return next weekend, there will be equally bad players, who will help me pay off my mortgage on my boardwalk condo, which I won the down payment for in the 10/20 and 20/40 games in Atlantic City.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were you at the 10/20 main game in the corner of the high limit room on Wednesday nite? There was someone at my table who got his Aces cracked at least 4 times w/hands that you described.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope I was the guy in the main game on Friday who had my aces cracked like that.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

The 1/2NL and 2/5NL games at foxwoods are worse than anything ive ever seen in my life. People will call raises and chase to any bet with 72s and 83s. Play solid poker and you should easily be taking money from these people tho

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

Was this at the Borgata or the Taj? Seems standard for the Taj.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
have you seen the 1/2NL at Ceasar's in AC?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am normally a Showboat/Taj/Borgata guy, but the after my recent (& first) trip to the Ceasars AC poker room, I can't think of an easier 1/2 game around.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

<<This past weekend I got my pocket rockets UTG cold called by the player immediately to my left who held an 8-4 because it was suited. It went heads up to the flop where he caught 4. He called me all the way down to the river where he caught another, 4, and raised my river bet.>>

Hmmmm...Here is my hand:
He raised 8-4off, I 3 bet with AA, 4 on the flop, runner runner river flush (his 8 is gooood).
Nine how do you look like? I am mid age Russian, black hair / eyeglasses.
X3_kto

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Try 10/20, a guy defended his big blind with a 3-4o heads up to my button steal with a K-8s, and proceeded to call me all the way down to my river bet when he hit a four on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who plays the hand worse? The calling station or the over-aggressive player who tries to bluff the calling station on every street?

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

Exactly, the guy with the 43 made a marginally poor preflop call and played his hand great postflop. If this is an example of how fishy the play is, I'd find a better game.

-Michael

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly, the guy with the 43 made a marginally poor preflop call and played his hand great postflop. If this is an example of how fishy the play is, I'd find a better game.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Marginally poor? It was a rather large margin. Personally, I don't defend my big blind with a 3-4, even if its suited, that hand is so dominated. You gotta hit the board at least once, and hope that the button raiser in position doesn't hit at all.

If I'm the blind, I say "let's play the next hand, take my ten bucks."

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Try 10/20, a guy defended his big blind with a 3-4o heads up to my button steal with a K-8s, and proceeded to call me all the way down to my river bet when he hit a four on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
u don't understand poker, that guy played the hand well and if you can't see that u need to re-eval.
dave

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm the blind, I say "let's play the next hand, take my ten bucks."

[/ QUOTE ]

lol that seems like a good strat to me.
dave

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly, the guy with the 43 made a marginally poor preflop call and played his hand great postflop. If this is an example of how fishy the play is, I'd find a better game.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Marginally poor? It was a rather large margin. Personally, I don't defend my big blind with a 3-4, even if its suited, that hand is so dominated. You gotta hit the board at least once, and hope that the button raiser in position doesn't hit at all.

If I'm the blind, I say "let's play the next hand, take my ten bucks."

[/ QUOTE ]

Al - your foot is deeply in your mouth right now, trying to teach a bunch of shorthanded and HU limit hold'em experts what optimal blind play isn't wise - you will be proven wrong every time [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] And yes, the BB played the hand better than you did.

34o is a marginal call at worst pre-flop vs a button who is stealing greater than 31% of the time. A big blind defense hand generally needs 35% equity vs the stealer's hand range. If your attempting to steal less than 30% of the time then you have bigger problems than understanding blind play therefore we will assume your stealing at least 30% but probably closer to the range of 40% or 50% of the time when its checked to you on the button.

I suggest you read Stoxtraders fantastic book Winning in Tough Hold'em Games for more information. BB should be defending with this hand range vs a 40% stealer:


Pairs

22+

Suited

A2s+
K2s+
Q2s+
J2s+
T2s+
92s+
84s+
73s+
63s+
52s+
42s+

Offsuit

A2o+
K2o+
Q4o+
J7o+
T7o+
96o+
86o+
75o+
65o
54o


A player who steals 40% of the time on the button has a range of 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T8s+, A2o+, K5o+, Q8o+, J9o

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Try 10/20, a guy defended his big blind with a 3-4o heads up to my button steal with a K-8s, and proceeded to call me all the way down to my river bet when he hit a four on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who plays the hand worse? The calling station or the over-aggressive player who tries to bluff the calling station on every street?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll talk the OG bluffer for $500 Alex.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly, the guy with the 43 made a marginally poor preflop call and played his hand great postflop. If this is an example of how fishy the play is, I'd find a better game.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Marginally poor? It was a rather large margin. Personally, I don't defend my big blind with a 3-4, even if its suited, that hand is so dominated. You gotta hit the board at least once, and hope that the button raiser in position doesn't hit at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, his play isn't bad at all, especially against you. There is one thing his hand is almost always not, and that's "dominated". And of course, heads up in a blind steal situation, catching any pair is usually enough to call down. Furthermore, you don't have to actually catch, since he is just as likely to steal this pot from you when you whiff the flop as you were to steal the blinds to begin with, so his cards might not even matter.

This hand (a blind steal) is certainly outside the realm of the vast majority of crap play anyway, since it's rare everyone will fold to the button to begin with.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly, the guy with the 43 made a marginally poor preflop call and played his hand great postflop. If this is an example of how fishy the play is, I'd find a better game.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Marginally poor? It was a rather large margin. Personally, I don't defend my big blind with a 3-4, even if its suited, that hand is so dominated. You gotta hit the board at least once, and hope that the button raiser in position doesn't hit at all.

If I'm the blind, I say "let's play the next hand, take my ten bucks."

[/ QUOTE ]

Al - your foot is deeply in your mouth right now, trying to teach a bunch of shorthanded and HU limit hold'em experts what optimal blind play isn't wise - you will be proven wrong every time [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] And yes, the BB played the hand better than you did.

34o is a marginal call at worst pre-flop vs a button who is stealing greater than 31% of the time. A big blind defense hand generally needs 35% equity vs the stealer's hand range. If your attempting to steal less than 30% of the time then you have bigger problems than understanding blind play therefore we will assume your stealing at least 30% but probably closer to the range of 40% or 50% of the time when its checked to you on the button.

I suggest you read Stoxtraders fantastic book Winning in Tough Hold'em Games for more information. BB should be defending with this hand range vs a 40% stealer:


Pairs

22+

Suited

A2s+
K2s+
Q2s+
J2s+
T2s+
92s+
84s+
73s+
63s+
52s+
42s+

Offsuit

A2o+
K2o+
Q4o+
J7o+
T7o+
96o+
86o+
75o+
65o
54o


A player who steals 40% of the time on the button has a range of 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T8s+, A2o+, K5o+, Q8o+, J9o

[/ QUOTE ]

I read it, its a great book, thats why I steal raise with my hand. BB defender had a 43o, which is not on the chart, so I guess that hand doesn't have the 30% equity.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly, the guy with the 43 made a marginally poor preflop call and played his hand great postflop. If this is an example of how fishy the play is, I'd find a better game.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Marginally poor? It was a rather large margin. Personally, I don't defend my big blind with a 3-4, even if its suited, that hand is so dominated. You gotta hit the board at least once, and hope that the button raiser in position doesn't hit at all.

If I'm the blind, I say "let's play the next hand, take my ten bucks."

[/ QUOTE ]

Al - your foot is deeply in your mouth right now, trying to teach a bunch of shorthanded and HU limit hold'em experts what optimal blind play isn't wise - you will be proven wrong every time [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] And yes, the BB played the hand better than you did.

34o is a marginal call at worst pre-flop vs a button who is stealing greater than 31% of the time. A big blind defense hand generally needs 35% equity vs the stealer's hand range. If your attempting to steal less than 30% of the time then you have bigger problems than understanding blind play therefore we will assume your stealing at least 30% but probably closer to the range of 40% or 50% of the time when its checked to you on the button.

I suggest you read Stoxtraders fantastic book Winning in Tough Hold'em Games for more information. BB should be defending with this hand range vs a 40% stealer:


Pairs

22+

Suited

A2s+
K2s+
Q2s+
J2s+
T2s+
92s+
84s+
73s+
63s+
52s+
42s+

Offsuit

A2o+
K2o+
Q4o+
J7o+
T7o+
96o+
86o+
75o+
65o
54o


A player who steals 40% of the time on the button has a range of 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T8s+, A2o+, K5o+, Q8o+, J9o

[/ QUOTE ]

I read it, its a great book, thats why I steal raise with my hand. BB defender had a 43o, which is not on the chart, so I guess that hand doesn't have the 30% equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

43s is on the list..why don't you defend with it? 54o is; hence why calling is only marginally poor instead of the error of large margin you exlaim it to be. Instead of continuing to huff and puff as all you wanna be "live pro" ogres tend to do when confronted by the "math types" with simple proof backing up arguments; how about you produce a simple mathematically based or logical counter argument proving that calling 43o is an "error of large margin"?

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

Not to mention everyone, the obvious tilt that Al incurred after this hand. Which in my opinion is worth the pf call to begin with.

Seriously though, I can't figure out if threads like this are aimed at creating tougher games or the posters are just rubbing in their good table selection.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I read it, its a great book, thats why I steal raise with my hand. BB defender had a 43o, which is not on the chart, so I guess that hand doesn't have the 30% equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

So when you read a book do you normally keep your eyes closed? Because thats how its coming across with your responses in this thread so far - we are trying to help you here - if you prefer to be left in the dark thats fine, just let us know and you can continue to live life happily without knowing that your understanding of optimum blind play is significantly flawed.

1) 35% equity is where you should defend, thats the proven and accepted optimal range based on expected value. The key is to open and tighten your range vs the villain's steal range. Your confusing the concepts of equity and stealing range.

2) This list doesn't come from the book, it was created using an equity simulator.

3) 43o offsuit is just one pip below the optimal calling range of 54o. In the long run its possible that you loose less from 43o than 54o, we are splitting hairs here. The reason why you defend with 34o isnt to proffit, its to reduce the long-term loss of hands like 34o in the BB. I'd rather loose .4 BB/hand than .5BB/hand over the course of 5,000 trials anyday, theoretically thats a savings of 500BB over the trial period.

4) Your looking a bit foolish, you would be better off saying "thanks, I just learned something today" than argue a point that you already lost.

5) Your post-flop play in the hand was 10x worse than calling with 34o in the BB vs your likely steal range.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously though, I can't figure out if threads like this are aimed at creating tougher games or the posters are just rubbing in their good table selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds like an add saying "sit to my left, I want to donate money" to me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I'm the blind, I say "let's play the next hand, take my ten bucks."

[/ QUOTE ]

lol that seems like a good strat to me.
dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats why short handed mid-high limt live games used to be so good...unfortunatly many players learned how to defend.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

This thread is a perfect illustration of why so many players say, "but I play tight, and they always suck out on me..... is it just bad luck, or just bad play?"

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I'm the blind, I say "let's play the next hand, take my ten bucks."

[/ QUOTE ]

lol that seems like a good strat to me.
dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats why short handed mid-high limt live games used to be so good...unfortunatly many players learned how to defend.

[/ QUOTE ]

luckily most of them still dont know how to play optimally post-flop!

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

I've never seen the borg 10-20 LH that silly, but you've talked me into a road trip this weekend....thanks.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I'm the blind, I say "let's play the next hand, take my ten bucks."

[/ QUOTE ]

lol that seems like a good strat to me.
dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats why short handed mid-high limt live games used to be so good...unfortunatly many players learned how to defend.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I call in the BB with 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] against your steal raise every time, Lenny!

Oh, no, wait...I 3-bet with that hand and crack your aces! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've never seen the borg 10-20 LH that silly, but you've talked me into a road trip this weekend....thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either you've picked bad tables or you haven't played in the Borg limit games much. Games "that silly" are the rule, not the exception to the rule.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

OK all you Einsteins:

From page 105 of Stox "Winning in Tough Hold'em Games" Defending from the Big Blind:
High limit, short handed player (similar results for mid, low and grinder):

43off suit
287 trials
winning %: 1.74%
Amount won/(lost): ($33,979)
Avg $ per hand: ($118.39), that's a loss!
Big bet per hand: (0.50) loser
W%When Seeing the Flop:29.41%
Went to Showdown:35.29%
Won at Show down: 50%

43suited
102 trials
winning %: 15.69%
Amount won/(lost): ($8,529)
Avg $ per hand: ($83.62), that's a loss!
Big bet per hand: (0.45) loser
W%When Seeing the Flop:32.65%
Went to Showdown:16.33%
Won at Show down: 62.5%


If it won 50% at show down that's great. However in this case I believe the BB hit his pair on the flop. However, I interpret this data as; if you call from the big blind defending against a raise, you lose big time, especially if you don't hit your 4-3, suited or unsuited.

Discuss amongst yourselves...Please analyze and explain why this is a profitable call when defending the big blind.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK all you Einsteins:

From page 105 of Stox "Winning in Tough Hold'em Games" Defending from the Big Blind:

43off suit
287 trials
winning %: 1.74%
Amount won/(lost): ($33,979)
Avg $ per hand: ($118.39), that's a loss!
Big bet per hand: (0.50) loser
W%When Seeing the Flop:29.41%
Went to Showdown:35.29%
Won at Show down: 50%

43suited
102 trials
winning %: 15.69%
Amount won/(lost): ($8,529)
Avg $ per hand: ($83.62), that's a loss!
Big bet per hand: (0.45) loser
W%When Seeing the Flop:32.65%
Went to Showdown:16.33%
Won at Show down: 62.5%


If it won 50% at show down that's great. However in this case I believe the BB hit his pair on the flop. However, I interpret this data as; if you call from the big blind defending against a raise, you lose big time, especially if you don't hit your 4-3, suited or unsuited.

Discuss amongst yourselves...Please analyze and explain why this is a profitable call when defending the big blind.

[/ QUOTE ]
your amazing this is like the sports betting thread except even wrose.
look at it this way all these people who play well, maybe even better than you, are saying "dude, it is an obv call, or if not an obv call it is at the very wrost boarderline." to this your responce is welp u are all wrong. fine. if you don't want to consider the situation more closely that is ok, but u should at least consider that in the face of greater evendence you are wrong.
dave
ps. you don't even [censored] understand the mistake you made in your post and how you proved our point. your mentality is y poker is always gonne be profitable.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
your amazing this is like the sports betting thread except even wrose.
look at it this way all these people who play well, maybe even better than you, are saying "dude, it is an obv call, or if not an obv call it is at the very wrost boarderline." to this your responce is welp u are all wrong. fine. if you don't want to consider the situation more closely that is ok, but u should at least consider that in the face of greater evendence you are wrong.
dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't think so Dave. I'm folding my 4-3. There appears to be evidence to the contrary in the tables on pages 105 thru 125, the 4-3's are money losers, I fold that. You can find me at the Borgata on Saturday. Please sit two seats to my left, and call with all of your 4-3's to my button raises. Feel free to raise back my blind steals with that hand, and go to the showdown. Poker will always be profitable for me.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention everyone, the obvious tilt that Al incurred after this hand. Which in my opinion is worth the pf call to begin with.

Seriously though, I can't figure out if threads like this are aimed at creating tougher games or the posters are just rubbing in their good table selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you really select a bad table at the Borgata?

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

The thing that "somewhat surprised" me was the tellathon at $10-20. It's like some of them have NEVER read a book, e.g., Korean woman touching her neck dimple and calling down to the river with KK and an Ace on the flop...come on, the $3-6 tables are over there.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your amazing this is like the sports betting thread except even wrose.
look at it this way all these people who play well, maybe even better than you, are saying "dude, it is an obv call, or if not an obv call it is at the very wrost boarderline." to this your responce is welp u are all wrong. fine. if you don't want to consider the situation more closely that is ok, but u should at least consider that in the face of greater evendence you are wrong.
dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't think so Dave. I'm folding my 4-3. There appears to be evidence to the contrary in the tables on pages 105 thru 125, the 4-3's are money losers, I fold that. You can find me at the Borgata on Saturday. Please sit two seats to my left, and call with all of your 4-3's to my button raises. Feel free to raise back my blind steals with that hand, and go to the showdown. Poker will always be profitable for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you honestly not see how your "stats" proved their point?

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK all you Einsteins:

From page 105 of Stox "Winning in Tough Hold'em Games" Defending from the Big Blind:
High limit, short handed player (similar results for mid, low and grinder):

43off suit
287 trials
winning %: 1.74%
Amount won/(lost): ($33,979)
Avg $ per hand: ($118.39), that's a loss!
Big bet per hand: (0.50) loser
W%When Seeing the Flop:29.41%
Went to Showdown:35.29%
Won at Show down: 50%

43suited
102 trials
winning %: 15.69%
Amount won/(lost): ($8,529)
Avg $ per hand: ($83.62), that's a loss!
Big bet per hand: (0.45) loser
W%When Seeing the Flop:32.65%
Went to Showdown:16.33%
Won at Show down: 62.5%


If it won 50% at show down that's great. However in this case I believe the BB hit his pair on the flop. However, I interpret this data as; if you call from the big blind defending against a raise, you lose big time, especially if you don't hit your 4-3, suited or unsuited.

Discuss amongst yourselves...Please analyze and explain why this is a profitable call when defending the big blind.

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Hmmmmm I wonder what the win rates of those hands would be vs a steal raise if you just folded them every time? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I don't think many have necessarily said its correct to defend with them, but just that its certainly not that far off. Now if we know its a raiser who will play very poorly post flop then surely its gotta be correct.

-ActionBob

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

i hear the world is flat.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

Ok, so Al forgot what happens when you just fold, but isn't everyone learning the lesson of the statistics a little too well?

1. The table in WITHG is for a finite set of hands. The underlying mean of the distribution is not revealed to us and the hands that were marginal in the data sample may actually be losers (or bigger winners).

2. The results are the results for the play of a particular high limit player. I don't think we know who he is, but he likely plays better than Al. Against the same competition, Al may get crushed with 43s.

3. The results are for play against a particular set of steal raisers. We don't know them, either, but they probably play better than Al's competition.

So, maybe all we can say from that data is that one particular high stakes player should be relatively indifferent between playing or folding 43s to a steal raise. Al's opponent here should probably be deciding what to do based on other considerations or consideration of how well he plays vs. Al.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK all you Einsteins:

From page 105 of Stox "Winning in Tough Hold'em Games" Defending from the Big Blind:
High limit, short handed player (similar results for mid, low and grinder):

43off suit
287 trials
winning %: 1.74%
Amount won/(lost): ($33,979)
Avg $ per hand: ($118.39), that's a loss!
Big bet per hand: (0.50) loser
W%When Seeing the Flop:29.41%
Went to Showdown:35.29%
Won at Show down: 50%

43suited
102 trials
winning %: 15.69%
Amount won/(lost): ($8,529)
Avg $ per hand: ($83.62), that's a loss!
Big bet per hand: (0.45) loser
W%When Seeing the Flop:32.65%
Went to Showdown:16.33%
Won at Show down: 62.5%


If it won 50% at show down that's great. However in this case I believe the BB hit his pair on the flop. However, I interpret this data as; if you call from the big blind defending against a raise, you lose big time, especially if you don't hit your 4-3, suited or unsuited.

Discuss amongst yourselves...Please analyze and explain why this is a profitable call when defending the big blind.

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Do the world a favor and cease living. As in the sports betting thread, you have hijacked a thread and taken it off onto a tangent.

No one said that it is a profitable call. Everyone said that it is marginally -EV. Everyone also said that it is VERY -EV to bet three times with King high into a calling station on an apparently ragged board. People are trying to help you, though I imagine that they will stop doing so given that you have acted like such an ass.

By the way:

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You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.


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Thread. OVER.