Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

100% standard. also, to the other guy, yes we are 4 betting QQ/KK/AA too.

to cero, i think shoving will not make any additional hands fold but making it 2k might induce a bluff-shove once in a while. i'm sure all of us have been guilty of 5-betting trash before.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

ansky, as a starter to this discussion, it's clearly no different making it 2k compared to shoving if the oop player never calls (which is a pretty normal assumption); or basically plays well (EG knows that when you make it 2k its with the intention of calling a shove); At 100 bb, I think calling in this spot is pretty awful for the oop player (unless we just think its a better way to get all the money in, vs certain types of bad players). If you think OOP player will call your reraises sometimes and is an aggro reraiser to start with, then we should be shoving a wide range in this spot when we have 100 bb (like AXs sometimes etc) since these hands are hard to play post flop oop but have equity vs the raiser. In reality though, this situation doesn't exist in my experience; the preflop aggressor would have to be as aggro as a player like CTS, yet call reraises...

I guess once stacks get deeper then OOP will start calling when we 3 bet and so we might want to shove hands that are hardish to play post flop but easy have enough equity to play for stacks (EG AK)... but then with deepened stacks, shoving starts to become a pretty big overbet so meh.

I'd like to hear what you think our calling range to a 4 bet is oop if we have deep stacks oop vs an aggro player; EG we have AK button raises 200 we make it 650 he makes it 2000 we have 10k stacks. calls? push? fold? how about AQs? TT?

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

[ QUOTE ]

I do it because if somebody's 3-betting me light I like to 4-bet light. But since a push and a pot comitting 4-bet are often interpreted the same way, when I'm 4-betting light I like to risk the minimum instead of pushing as I think it's just as effective. But obviously if I do that, I have to play AK/AA the same way.

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for 5k stacks, making it 2k and then folding with small unpaired cards is a mistake if he ever 5bets with unpaired hands other than ak. for 6k stacks its still a very thin fold (especially if you're saying part of the justification for 4betting small and calling with ak is that you might get him to shove a worse hand).

i shove here because i prefer to shove rather than 4bet and fold with my light 4bets. make the stacks 150BB or more and i think 4betting with room to fold becomes a better play.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I do it because if somebody's 3-betting me light I like to 4-bet light. But since a push and a pot comitting 4-bet are often interpreted the same way, when I'm 4-betting light I like to risk the minimum instead of pushing as I think it's just as effective. But obviously if I do that, I have to play AK/AA the same way.

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for 5k stacks, making it 2k and then folding with small unpaired cards is a mistake if he ever 5bets with unpaired hands other than ak

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I've been 5-bet a lot. I've called the 5-bets a lot and thus seen what people 5-bet with. It's not often 9Ts. The range of hands that 5-bet is not one that makes it profitable to call with unpaired small cards.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

For 5k stacks you're getting 7 : 3 on the call. The math obviously depends on exactly which small unpaired cards you have. Lets take 74s as an example. You have about 40% equity vs ak (and other big aces) and about 20% equity vs AA (and other big pairs). So if he's 5betting a range like jj+ aq+, you're 20% against 24 combinations and 40% against 32 combinations for a total of greater than 30% equity. Folding is a mistake against this range. (i don't have pokerstove on this computer so i'm making estimates based on some twodimes calculations, if someone wants to run this in pokerstove and get the exact numbers, that'd be appreciated).

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

383,556,096 games 0.672 secs 570,768,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 30.1150 % 29.89% 00.23% { 74s }
Hand 2: 69.8850 % 69.66% 00.23% { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

thanks

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

You don't have to 4-bet to 2k ike

Ansky,

I think if you 4 bet to something like 1650 that his hand range for continuing will be more optimal for you

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

[ QUOTE ]

You don't have to 4-bet to 2k ike

Ansky,

I think if you 4 bet to something like 1650 that his hand range for continuing will be more optimal for you

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding 74s is still really marginal getting 2 : 1 instead of 7 : 3. I'd much rather shove and increase my fold equity instead of setting myself up to be able to make a really thin fold.

Re: preflop checkie cause i have lost every pot in the last 7 days,
 

74s is a "really thin fold" if you 4 bet it to $1650 and the guy shoves for $5k?