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-   -   why does this forum care so much about religion (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=521521)

MaxWeiss 10-13-2007 12:07 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Atheism promotes neither torture nor murder

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not. Not yet. But wait until the first Atheist Docrine is written and see what happens.


[/ QUOTE ]

I must be stupid because I think you just said that not believing in an imaginary all powerful supernatural big brother requires a doctrine. No, wait, you must be stupid.

MaxWeiss 10-13-2007 12:11 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Tpir says "Atheism promotes neither torture nor murder, regardless of what implicit ideals you try to draw from a disbelief in God."

Well religion certainly doesn't promote it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be hilarious if it wasn't serious (i.e. so damningly and willfully ignorant).

luckyme 10-13-2007 12:31 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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Theism is a problem in our world.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Someone believing in God is a problem for you? LoL.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

My cousin is gay. My aunts neighbor was in the tower. My neighbors cousin was raped and needs an abortion. My best friends sister-in-law's niece has aids in africa. My ....

Yep. It's a problem for me. How personal does it have to be before it can be deemed a problem? I'm not a gay pregnant person with aids in africa if that's what you're wondering.
( I made up the other stuff).

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Non-Christian regimes were the root cause of the death of perhaps 100,000,000 people last century.

But no need to worry, we're all better, enlightened and all.

[/ QUOTE ]

that 'argument' always seems retarded to me.
"I don't want a bear to eat my dog."
"Why, more dogs are killed by cars than bears".
"oh, ok, then I guess I do want a bear to eat my dog".

Where does it imply that I want to be abused by a non-theist regime? I stated the things I don't want to occur because of some guy doing what his god is telling him. I try to keep the other nutties out of power also.

If Pol Pot comes back in power and kills 40,000,000 next year, I still don't want a rape victim to be forced to go to term in Alabama.
How you read that as support for Pol Pot, or meaning that Pol Pot wasn't worse.... oh, never mind, I do know why.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Accept that it's a trade. Eliminate Christianity and understand that the opportunity for Stalin and Pol Pot is increased, and with it, so is the chance your girlfriend won't be murdering any babies in the womb.

[/ QUOTE ]

The beauty of being an atheist is that I don't have to trade Pol Pot for Pat Robertson, I can hold both their views in contempt. Theists, otoh, have the problem of a shared claim to legitimacy of their ideology. Atheist don't share an ideology or a basis for it with any specific or general atheistic wrongdoer.

luckyme

pokervintage 10-13-2007 02:11 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
The beauty of being an atheist

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no beauty in being an atheist. An atheist has noone else to blame save himself. That's ugly!

pokervintage

einbert 10-13-2007 02:17 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
There is no beauty in being an atheist. An atheist has noone else to blame save himself. That's ugly!

[/ QUOTE ]
Also his billions of ancestors which are the reason for his genetic code.

Jamougha 10-13-2007 02:20 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The beauty of being an atheist

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no beauty in being an atheist. An atheist has noone else to blame save himself. That's ugly!

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think blaming others for your troubles is really beautiful tbh.

pokervintage 10-13-2007 04:00 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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I don't think blaming others for your troubles is really beautiful tbh

[/ QUOTE ]

Others? Not others. Only the ONE.

pokervintage

InTheDark 10-13-2007 08:09 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Atheist don't share an ideology or a basis for it with any specific or general atheistic wrongdoer.


[/ QUOTE ]

Saying it doesn't make it so. To not choose is a choice. To eschew a Christian society is to choose the chaos that lies in the direction of a secular society. It may not be chaotic today and Pol Pot may not self-generate, but the potential is greatly increased.

I'm trying to think of the most foul, doubtlessly Christian* world leader in the last century. Whoever gets the nod, he'll be small beer next to Stalin and Mao, or even Pol Pot.

* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

MidGe 10-13-2007 08:16 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

How convenient!

PS You must see the last century as very special for chritianity! LOL

InTheDark 10-13-2007 08:29 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

How convenient!

PS You must see the last century as very special for chritianity! LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it as an absolute indictment of secular/atheist regimes VS Christian regimes. Only the blind or the deluded would believe otherwise.

MidGe 10-13-2007 08:46 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
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* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

How convenient!

PS You must see the last century as very special for chritianity! LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it as an absolute indictment of secular/atheist regimes VS Christian regimes. Only the blind or the deluded would believe otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Going on the last 2000 years or so, which is more representative, I see so called christian behavior so perverse and calculated that it does stand as absolute indictment of christianity. Only the blind or the deluded would believe otherwise.

Hopey 10-13-2007 10:02 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Adolf Hitler in a speech in 1933.

http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/Z/P/hitler19.jpg

http://www.remnantofgod.org/NaziRCC/hitler4.jpg

http://www.remnantofgod.org/NaziRCC/...luteHitler.jpg

[image]http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%[/image]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...lic_church.jpg

MidGe 10-13-2007 10:05 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
Hey they are not nazis with christians!!! True christians only belong to [insert your own sect here]!

vhawk01 10-13-2007 10:59 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
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Theism is a problem in our world.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Someone believing in God is a problem for you? LoL.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

My cousin is gay. My aunts neighbor was in the tower. My neighbors cousin was raped and needs an abortion. My best friends sister-in-law's niece has aids in africa. My ....

Yep. It's a problem for me. How personal does it have to be before it can be deemed a problem? I'm not a gay pregnant person with aids in africa if that's what you're wondering.
( I made up the other stuff).

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Non-Christian regimes were the root cause of the death of perhaps 100,000,000 people last century.

But no need to worry, we're all better, enlightened and all.

[/ QUOTE ]

that 'argument' always seems retarded to me.
"I don't want a bear to eat my dog."
"Why, more dogs are killed by cars than bears".
"oh, ok, then I guess I do want a bear to eat my dog".

Where does it imply that I want to be abused by a non-theist regime? I stated the things I don't want to occur because of some guy doing what his god is telling him. I try to keep the other nutties out of power also.

If Pol Pot comes back in power and kills 40,000,000 next year, I still don't want a rape victim to be forced to go to term in Alabama.
How you read that as support for Pol Pot, or meaning that Pol Pot wasn't worse.... oh, never mind, I do know why.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Accept that it's a trade. Eliminate Christianity and understand that the opportunity for Stalin and Pol Pot is increased, and with it, so is the chance your girlfriend won't be murdering any babies in the womb.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, ok. You understand there are different reasons and motivations for eliminating Christianity right? (Not that I want to do this) So, eliminating it for SOME reasons might lead to an opening or propensity for Stalin-like disaster. But surely you can use your imagination to come up with OTHER reasons and motivations that would be JUST AS harsh towards Stalin-like movements as Christian movements?

vhawk01 10-13-2007 11:02 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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Atheist don't share an ideology or a basis for it with any specific or general atheistic wrongdoer.


[/ QUOTE ]

Saying it doesn't make it so. To not choose is a choice. To eschew a Christian society is to choose the chaos that lies in the direction of a secular society. It may not be chaotic today and Pol Pot may not self-generate, but the potential is greatly increased.

I'm trying to think of the most foul, doubtlessly Christian* world leader in the last century. Whoever gets the nod, he'll be small beer next to Stalin and Mao, or even Pol Pot.

* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, this is like saying it is better to accept the GUARANTEED atrocities and abuses and infringments on our freedoms that come with a government because "Hey who knows without government really bad stuff could happen!" Yes, of course really bad stuff could happen but that is no reason to accept the GUARANTEE of really bad stuff happening, right?

IOW, Argument from the Status Quo = fallacious.

vhawk01 10-13-2007 11:04 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

How convenient!

PS You must see the last century as very special for chritianity! LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it as an absolute indictment of secular/atheist regimes VS Christian regimes. Only the blind or the deluded would believe otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]


So the greatest country in the history of the world isn't favorable evidence for secular regimes? Or do you get to claim the US is in fact a Christian regime but somehow Hitler's Germany was not? I'd love to see how that argument goes.

Bill Haywood 10-13-2007 12:08 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
People like to beat up on easy targets.

Lestat 10-13-2007 02:07 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
I admit there's some truth to what you say. If you're a fan of logic (and like to debate), it can be fun to "rip" into the illogical arguments of theists. But there's another reason I think it's important to discuss this philosophical topic. Mainly, that the world would be a better place if everyone thought more logically when it came to religion and gods.

boracay 10-13-2007 06:20 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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Mainly, that the world would be a better place if everyone thought more logically when it came to religion and gods.

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Good point.

Archon_Wing 10-13-2007 06:45 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
Although I do thing religions involvement in these atrocities was a matter of conveniences for those seeking to wage war. The Crusades would have probaly happened without Christianity under another name I think.


InTheDark 10-13-2007 07:08 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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But surely you can use your imagination to come up with OTHER reasons and motivations that would be JUST AS harsh towards Stalin-like movements as Christian movements?



[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but I don't see any trace of such in existance at present. Also, it's damn hard for simple Christians to combat Stalin-like formations when they also battle the secular on a second front.

InTheDark 10-13-2007 07:12 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

How convenient!

PS You must see the last century as very special for chritianity! LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it as an absolute indictment of secular/atheist regimes VS Christian regimes. Only the blind or the deluded would believe otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]


So the greatest country in the history of the world isn't favorable evidence for secular regimes? Or do you get to claim the US is in fact a Christian regime but somehow Hitler's Germany was not? I'd love to see how that argument goes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usenet rule from 1986: All threads are over after Hitler has entered the debate.

InTheDark 10-13-2007 07:25 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Adolf Hitler in a speech in 1933.

http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/Z/P/hitler19.jpg



[/ QUOTE ]

So if I understand your point, it's simply what I say and whom I stand next to, not what I do, upon which I'll be judged?

I'm certain you see how foolish your point is but I offer you a chance to pull this one out. Get out the New Testament and locate that passage or Gospel that would even tangentally suggest the extermination of all the Jews, Gypsies and ho.mosexuals and quote it here. Then you can put Hitler in the Christian column.

vhawk01 10-13-2007 10:40 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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But surely you can use your imagination to come up with OTHER reasons and motivations that would be JUST AS harsh towards Stalin-like movements as Christian movements?



[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but I don't see any trace of such in existance at present. Also, it's damn hard for simple Christians to combat Stalin-like formations when they also battle the secular on a second front.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you think that the motivations that I have for wanting to maintain a secular US are motivations that will lead to the rise of a Stalin-like figure? Thats insane. Stalin's regime represented EXACTLY everything I fear about a religious regime, namely cultish irrationality and the absolute, unquestioned authority of one source.

vhawk01 10-13-2007 10:41 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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[ QUOTE ]
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* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

How convenient!

PS You must see the last century as very special for chritianity! LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it as an absolute indictment of secular/atheist regimes VS Christian regimes. Only the blind or the deluded would believe otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]


So the greatest country in the history of the world isn't favorable evidence for secular regimes? Or do you get to claim the US is in fact a Christian regime but somehow Hitler's Germany was not? I'd love to see how that argument goes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usenet rule from 1986: All threads are over after Hitler has entered the debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he didn't enter the debate in my post, and you've talked about him before the post I made, so I'm not sure why you are running away and making excuses now. If you can't address my point thats fine but waiting to apply Godwin's Law until you've gotten all of the Hitler out of your system seems a little unfair. As a matter of fact, weren't you the FIRST one to bring up Hitler?

InTheDark 10-13-2007 10:50 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

How convenient!

PS You must see the last century as very special for chritianity! LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it as an absolute indictment of secular/atheist regimes VS Christian regimes. Only the blind or the deluded would believe otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]


So the greatest country in the history of the world isn't favorable evidence for secular regimes? Or do you get to claim the US is in fact a Christian regime but somehow Hitler's Germany was not? I'd love to see how that argument goes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usenet rule from 1986: All threads are over after Hitler has entered the debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he didn't enter the debate in my post, and you've talked about him before the post I made, so I'm not sure why you are running away and making excuses now. If you can't address my point thats fine but waiting to apply Godwin's Law until you've gotten all of the Hitler out of your system seems a little unfair. As a matter of fact, weren't you the FIRST one to bring up Hitler?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was the first to attempt to exclude Hitler from the debate. I should have known better. My goal was not possible.

tame_deuces 10-13-2007 10:55 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

But atheism does not imply belief in a soviet communistic state? Your claim falls on that fallacy alone.

Tyrannies have been formed due to theism however.

vhawk01 10-13-2007 11:05 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

How convenient!

PS You must see the last century as very special for chritianity! LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it as an absolute indictment of secular/atheist regimes VS Christian regimes. Only the blind or the deluded would believe otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]


So the greatest country in the history of the world isn't favorable evidence for secular regimes? Or do you get to claim the US is in fact a Christian regime but somehow Hitler's Germany was not? I'd love to see how that argument goes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usenet rule from 1986: All threads are over after Hitler has entered the debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he didn't enter the debate in my post, and you've talked about him before the post I made, so I'm not sure why you are running away and making excuses now. If you can't address my point thats fine but waiting to apply Godwin's Law until you've gotten all of the Hitler out of your system seems a little unfair. As a matter of fact, weren't you the FIRST one to bring up Hitler?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was the first to attempt to exclude Hitler from the debate. I should have known better. My goal was not possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, why? I don't think you really get what Godwin's Law is all about? I think in discussions about Nazi Germany, its ok to talk about Hitler. In a discussion about genocidal despots, same.

Hopey 10-13-2007 11:36 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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[ QUOTE ]

* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Adolf Hitler in a speech in 1933.

http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/Z/P/hitler19.jpg



[/ QUOTE ]

So if I understand your point, it's simply what I say and whom I stand next to, not what I do, upon which I'll be judged?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm sure the Catholic clergy who were glad-handing Adolf Hitler were doing it completely against their will, and not because they supported his government.

So I guess they were simply cowardly hypocrites, rather than accomplices. Glad we cleared that up.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm certain you see how foolish your point is but I offer you a chance to pull this one out. Get out the New Testament and locate that passage or Gospel that would even tangentally suggest the extermination of all the Jews, Gypsies and ho.mosexuals and quote it here. Then you can put Hitler in the Christian column.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake. Obviously the Catholic church has always welcomed homosexuals and Jews with open arms.

ChrisV 10-14-2007 12:16 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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Saying it doesn't make it so. To not choose is a choice. To eschew a Christian society is to choose the chaos that lies in the direction of a secular society.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are plenty of very secular countries in the world - I live in one - and they're doing just fine thanks. I don't think you're in any position to talk about the decline of society when the United States is in the process of abolishing fundamental civil liberties and is being enthusiastically cheered on by the strongly Christian section of the country.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to think of the most foul, doubtlessly Christian* world leader in the last century. Whoever gets the nod, he'll be small beer next to Stalin and Mao, or even Pol Pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd go with Ceausescu, or Franco.

The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

yukoncpa 10-14-2007 12:37 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm certain you see how foolish your point is but I offer you a chance to pull this one out. Get out the New Testament and locate that passage or Gospel that would even tangentally suggest the extermination of all the Jews, Gypsies and ho.mosexuals and quote it here. Then you can put Hitler in the Christian column.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did God change his mind about killing these folk come New Testament times? What about his original commands:

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

vhawk01 10-14-2007 12:53 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm certain you see how foolish your point is but I offer you a chance to pull this one out. Get out the New Testament and locate that passage or Gospel that would even tangentally suggest the extermination of all the Jews, Gypsies and ho.mosexuals and quote it here. Then you can put Hitler in the Christian column.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did God change his mind about killing these folk come New Testament times? What about his original commands:

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

And honestly, who's killed more Jews than God?

InTheDark 10-14-2007 08:38 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm certain you see how foolish your point is but I offer you a chance to pull this one out. Get out the New Testament and locate that passage or Gospel that would even tangentally suggest the extermination of all the Jews, Gypsies and ho.mosexuals and quote it here. Then you can put Hitler in the Christian column.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did God change his mind about killing these folk come New Testament times? What about his original commands:

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

This really blows me away. This joker is so commited to this labeling of Hitler that he did a little research to make a totally worthless point, not even a glancing blow. That, for me, sums up the strength of most atheists and their arguments.

InTheDark 10-14-2007 08:41 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Adolf Hitler in a speech in 1933.

http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/Z/P/hitler19.jpg



[/ QUOTE ]

So if I understand your point, it's simply what I say and whom I stand next to, not what I do, upon which I'll be judged?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm sure the Catholic clergy who were glad-handing Adolf Hitler were doing it completely against their will, and not because they supported his government.

So I guess they were simply cowardly hypocrites, rather than accomplices. Glad we cleared that up.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm certain you see how foolish your point is but I offer you a chance to pull this one out. Get out the New Testament and locate that passage or Gospel that would even tangentally suggest the extermination of all the Jews, Gypsies and ho.mosexuals and quote it here. Then you can put Hitler in the Christian column.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake. Obviously the Catholic church has always welcomed homosexuals and Jews with open arms.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice deflection. This wasn't about the Catholic church. You need to find some Christian philosophy in Hitler's acts. You won't. Buh bye.

InTheDark 10-14-2007 08:52 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're truly the reasonable man you suggest you are, then you should make the effort to do a fair analysis of the successes scored by Christian countries VS non-Christian countries VS atheist countries during the past 100 years. If you do, it's game, set, match on most any metric.

But you won't.

Hopey 10-14-2007 09:15 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Adolf Hitler in a speech in 1933.

http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/Z/P/hitler19.jpg



[/ QUOTE ]

So if I understand your point, it's simply what I say and whom I stand next to, not what I do, upon which I'll be judged?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm sure the Catholic clergy who were glad-handing Adolf Hitler were doing it completely against their will, and not because they supported his government.

So I guess they were simply cowardly hypocrites, rather than accomplices. Glad we cleared that up.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm certain you see how foolish your point is but I offer you a chance to pull this one out. Get out the New Testament and locate that passage or Gospel that would even tangentally suggest the extermination of all the Jews, Gypsies and ho.mosexuals and quote it here. Then you can put Hitler in the Christian column.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake. Obviously the Catholic church has always welcomed homosexuals and Jews with open arms.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice deflection. This wasn't about the Catholic church. You need to find some Christian philosophy in Hitler's acts. You won't. Buh bye.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Catholic church was complicit in Hitler's rise to power and the subsequent persecution of Jews and homosexuals. If you don't see this, you're either stupid or dishonest. I'll leave it to you to decide which description fits you best.

Hopey 10-14-2007 09:17 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

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If you're truly the reasonable man you suggest you are, then you should make the effort to do a fair analysis of the successes scored by Christian countries VS non-Christian countries VS atheist countries during the past 100 years. If you do, it's game, set, match on most any metric.


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Since you can't seem to agree on what constitutes a "Christian country", this would be a pointless exercise.

vhawk01 10-14-2007 10:20 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're truly the reasonable man you suggest you are, then you should make the effort to do a fair analysis of the successes scored by Christian countries VS non-Christian countries VS atheist countries during the past 100 years. If you do, it's game, set, match on most any metric.

But you won't.

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Its like you can't read? Nothing in his post said anything about non-Christian socities. He said reason and skepticism.

ChrisV 10-14-2007 12:15 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're truly the reasonable man you suggest you are, then you should make the effort to do a fair analysis of the successes scored by Christian countries VS non-Christian countries VS atheist countries during the past 100 years. If you do, it's game, set, match on most any metric.

But you won't.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I know, there aren't any countries which enshrine Christianity as the national religion (I might be wrong about that, but anyway there aren't any major examples).

If you just mean nations with a high percentage of devoted Christians, I think you might lose. Check out this list of countries ranked by church attendance; there are a few successful countries in the top 20 or so (Ireland, the US, Belgium, Canada, The Netherlands... if you really want to claim The Netherlands as a "Christian country"), but if you remove the ex-Communist countries from the bottom 30 or so, it's a who's who of successful countries. This suggests - shockingly enough - that it's Communism which wrecks your country, and that Christianity at best is irrelevant.

By the way, why are we restricting things to the last 100 years? Christianity shouldn't have changed in the last 2,000 years, being an eternal truth, so if Christianity is such a great foundation for a nation, shouldn't I be able to look at any period in history and find Christian nations to be virutous? But this isn't the case. Why, if I were a cynical man, I might be inclined to think this showed that (a) Christianity has nothing to do with the success of nations or that (b) Christian nations only became successful after Christianity was ameliorated a little by the use of reason and skepticism.

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Nice deflection. This wasn't about the Catholic church. You need to find some Christian philosophy in Hitler's acts. You won't. Buh bye.

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We'll get started on that just as soon as you detail how it was people demanding too much factual evidence to back up claims who were the driving force behind the Stalin and Pol Pot regimes.

InTheDark 10-14-2007 07:41 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're truly the reasonable man you suggest you are, then you should make the effort to do a fair analysis of the successes scored by Christian countries VS non-Christian countries VS atheist countries during the past 100 years. If you do, it's game, set, match on most any metric.

But you won't.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I know, there aren't any countries which enshrine Christianity as the national religion (I might be wrong about that, but anyway there aren't any major examples).

If you just mean nations with a high percentage of devoted Christians, I think you might lose. Check out this list of countries ranked by church attendance; there are a few successful countries in the top 20 or so (Ireland, the US, Belgium, Canada, The Netherlands... if you really want to claim The Netherlands as a "Christian country"), but if you remove the ex-Communist countries from the bottom 30 or so, it's a who's who of successful countries. This suggests - shockingly enough - that it's Communism which wrecks your country, and that Christianity at best is irrelevant.

By the way, why are we restricting things to the last 100 years? Christianity shouldn't have changed in the last 2,000 years, being an eternal truth, so if Christianity is such a great foundation for a nation, shouldn't I be able to look at any period in history and find Christian nations to be virutous? But this isn't the case. Why, if I were a cynical man, I might be inclined to think this showed that (a) Christianity has nothing to do with the success of nations or that (b) Christian nations only became successful after Christianity was ameliorated a little by the use of reason and skepticism.

[ QUOTE ]
Nice deflection. This wasn't about the Catholic church. You need to find some Christian philosophy in Hitler's acts. You won't. Buh bye.

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll get started on that just as soon as you detail how it was people demanding too much factual evidence to back up claims who were the driving force behind the Stalin and Pol Pot regimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

THere are certainly definitional issues. But overall, the great ecomonic powers of today have serious Christian roots, perhaps with fading church attendance, but solid roots. Then look at personal freedom and rights for women. Christian rooted countries are far and away in the lead here. Islam is a female's nightmare, only slightly better if male. North Korea will be found at the bottom of every metric and I doubt there's much sanctioned religion.

You can parse it and spin it as your agenda warrants, but the easiest living is found under the shade tree of Christianity. Why do atheists loathe this fact so very much?

Lastly, Europe's shining star, the new and perhaps only future hope, Ireland, still atttends Christian church in huge numbers. There's reproducing as well, unlike the rest of Europe where societal slow suicide is the norm.


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