Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

Seat 6 is pretty terrible. Pay-off wizard, over-values hands.

This whole hand is standard, right?

On the river he went into the tank about calling, so I was pretty sure he was beat and actually I sat and wanted the call. What hands do call here? Jack lows... even worse, Qs and Ks?

Betting the river here is so automatic for me when we're both drawing, because I used to play 2-7 TD. Lately however, I feel that I have been donking off so much money on the river. Should you not always bet the river when your opponent is showing weakness in this game?

Razz ($5/$10), Ante $1, Bring-In $1,50 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (4.90 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks

5th Street - (2.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

River - (6.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___calls

Total pot: (8.45 BB - $84,50)

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

Wait... you really expect this guy to call with a K or Q?? Honestly, I don't see much value in this bet unless he really is that bad. The pot is small on 7th so I see even the worst players folding a J. I think he probably calls if he makes a worse T but that's about it. You are repping a made hand because I think you play a 76 exactly the same here. If he is SUPER suspicious and pays off SUPER light then I guess this works but it seems like there is more value in check-calling to try and pick off a bluff.

If you get raised are you folding?

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

Is this on Full Tilt? If so who is it? I've played with most of these guys and have notes on them so that would probably help...

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

gross river bet, this is absolutely horrible.

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

How can it be absolutely horrible when he most of the time he has a worse hand?

Seriously, the way you Razz sharks play rivers makes no sense to me. So basically you don't think this has any value, because he doesn't call with a worse hand. That means I should definitely bet the river here with a J, K, Q or pair because he folds better hands without thinking ??? So if this is true, two things happen:

1) I will bet out any hand because otherwise I will only check with a 9 or a T low and I tell people exactly what I have
2) He should call with a K because I will bet anything

I *believe* that rivers are played extremely passive by most Razz players, and people will only value bet like made 8s even though if the other guy is drawing often a jack low will be better than what he gets on average. So I basically think most people suck at river play, even you guys who are loads better than me. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, the way you Razz sharks play rivers makes no sense to me. So basically you don't think this has any value, because he doesn't call with a worse hand. That means I should definitely bet the river here with a J, K, Q or pair because he folds better hands without thinking ???

I *believe* that rivers are played extremely passive by most Razz players. So I basically think most people suck at river play, even you guys who are loads better than me. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless of how the hand was played, this statement is 100% accurate.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

It seems you have something like 50%-53% on the river, prior to any actions. But for you to have that good equity on the bet means that he'll never raise you off with a worse hand and pay off with a ton of really bad hands.

So I don't think you actually have a pure valuebet here, but it may still be better than checking if he is passive and mostly aren't going to bluff when you check while still valuebetting lower hands. Ie, you lose a little less on the bet by betfolding than by checkcalling. If he is passive allround and won't value bet hands like 8:s there's much less clear value in the bet.

I don't think a bet is clearly bad. Especially as his really good 4-card hands on 6th are very unlikely.

I am pretty sure that this is checkcall if we assume perfect play on the river only for both of you. Especially since your paired ace makes this hand not all that good among your possible hands. Assuming you're not crazy on 3d and bet every hand on 5th, T7 is in your bottom 15%, on the river.

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

[ QUOTE ]
How can it be absolutely horrible when he most of the time he has a worse hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rogg, you know better than this. Think of the classic stud example of showing quads on the board. Obviously, if you are showing quads your opponent is going to have the worst hand most of the time, but a bet is clearly very very bad because you are only getting action if you are beat. The same logic applies in situations like this.

This is a situation where unless your opponent is a COMPLETE retard (or he makes the 1 second best hand that MAYBE pays you... a worse T) you are only getting action if you are beat. Therefore, your bet is completely pointless most of the time. Of course, for metagame purposes it is important to bet here every once in a while to mix up your play, but in theory this is a pointless, -EV bet.

This is a very basic concept in poker that applies in pretty much every game.

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

[ QUOTE ]
5th Street - (2.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls


[/ QUOTE ]I wonder if different choices on earlier play would make the river choice more straightforward? For instance, you didn't bet 4th. I usually bet a hidden pair here, some people generally check. Since everyone checked, there's no information. So, I would assume my opponents have as good a draw as I do or a better one.

Then on 5th, you do bet your four-card draw, and Seat 6 calls. He doesn't have any reason to put you on anything but some kind of made hand or a 6 draw. But he calls anyway, which would make me think he has a wheel draw or at least a good 6.

So then, when I bricked 6th I would have checked. Assuming he would check behind, that means the river is a race and then it makes sense to check it down because he will very likely beat you with a T, 9, 8, 7 or 6. Or maybe also a 5. Since he calls and doesn't raise, I'm guessing he made an 8, 9 or T.

I think the critical decision point isn't on the river, I think it's on 5th when you have enough information to put him on a hand.

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 6 is pretty terrible. Pay-off wizard, over-values hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

this shades it towards a bet but you should probably still c/c here, because him just calling with many better hands doesn't equal it being a good bet. he'll bluff worse, anyhow.

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

[ QUOTE ]

Rogg, you know better than this. Think of the classic stud example of showing quads on the board. Obviously, if you are showing quads your opponent is going to have the worst hand most of the time, but a bet is clearly very very bad because you are only getting action if you are beat. The same logic applies in situations like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
But if you read my other post I *should* be getting action from worse hands, if he thinks I am still drawing on 6th. Ok, if this guy is the typical weak-tight river player I'm perhaps not getting great value, but as I said in this case I should definitely bet any total river brick, so this can't be "horrible" no matter which player type he is.

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

Okay...

1. I agree that you should bet any river brick here. You are repping a made 7 and if you make a 3rd pair or hit a face card on 7th you obviously have to try and win the pot by betting...

2. I also understand your next point - if this is true then your opponent will expect you to be betting awful hands a lot of the time and call you down very light, making this a good spot to value bet.

There are a few problems with this line of thinking Rogg. First of all, if your opponent is as bad as you say he is, you can't give him credit for this kind of multiple level analysis. Second, your actual hand on 6th is way worse than the hand you are representing. Given the action on previous streets, when you bet on 7th, I think he is very likely to think "he is betting his made 7 or 6 for value".

I am not saying that I never bet my hand vs. his board - I just don't in this situation. The only way I bet is if I feel the strength of my hand is discredited in some way. For example, if I had entered this hand in steal position then I would probably bet this river and expect him to call me down lighter. Also, if I showed weakness/played this hand awkwardly and given my opponent a good reason to think I was full of it then I would also probably bet.

In this situation, however, I believe you have played your hand exactly the same way you would've played a made 7. Your opponent isn't calling you down to 7th because he thinks you are floating - he is calling you down to 7th because he has a very big draw. On 7th, one of two things is going to happen:

1. He is going to hit a better hand than you
2. He is going to hit a worse hand than you

In the case of #1, he is at least calling EVERY time, and raising a lot of the time. In case #2, he is making a J, Q, or K and has to be the biggest retard in the world to call you down given how this hand has played out. Therefore, betting is pointless - worse hands fold, better hands play...

Like I said before, the only way I bet in this specific situation is if my opponent is good, and I want to keep him on his toes. Now if you check and he bets, you have a tough decision on your hands. I would base my decision a lot on the speed of his bet... an instabet in this spot is virtually never a bluff...

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. I agree that you should bet any river brick here. You are repping a made 7 and if you make a 3rd pair or hit a face card on 7th you obviously have to try and win the pot by betting...

[/ QUOTE ]Well,no. He should bet his worst hands because those are the best hands to bluff with, and he should bluff about once for every seven valuebets.

[ QUOTE ]
2. I also understand your next point - if this is true then your opponent will expect you to be betting awful hands a lot of the time and call you down very light, making this a good spot to value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]HIs opponent can't expect him to have a lot of bricks here, because he would have played his pairs and made hands identically from fifth onwards.

And more to the point, we don't know what the other guy expects.

[ QUOTE ]
I am not saying that I never bet my hand vs. his board - I just don't in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]I think the idea that you should vary how you play a lot of hands is close to the biggest mistake in poker. Some hands should be varied, but certainly not on the river and even before the river most hands should be played exactly the same if the situation is the same.

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponent isn't calling you down to 7th because he thinks you are floating - he is calling you down to 7th because he has a very big draw. On 7th, one of two things is going to happen:

[/ QUOTE ]If he has a big draw he must have checked a 4-card wheel on 4th. It's much likelier he just calls with a huge range here.

[ QUOTE ]
In case #2, he is making a J, Q, or K and has to be the biggest retard in the world to call you down given how this hand has played out.

[/ QUOTE ]A jack has about 20% equity against hero's range before betting.

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said before, the only way I bet in this specific situation is if my opponent is good, and I want to keep him on his toes.

[/ QUOTE ]That's exactly what you shouldn't do against a good opponent who had a huge draw on 6th. It's a pretty horrible play since you got crap equity for betting and a very good hand for check calling.

[ QUOTE ]
Now if you check and he bets, you have a tough decision on your hands.

[/ QUOTE ]No he doesn't; it's an autocall 100% of the time.

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Like I said before, the only way I bet in this specific situation is if my opponent is good, and I want to keep him on his toes.

[/ QUOTE ]That's exactly what you shouldn't do against a good opponent who had a huge draw on 6th. It's a pretty horrible play since you got crap equity for betting and a very good hand for check calling.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you are check/calling then what's different with bet and being called. You lose the same amount either way. The only difference comes if he'd fold when you bet with him having an 8, 9 or 10.

The neagtive angle of betting is if he raises (which would be hard if you had a made 7 and drawing lower) or that he'll bluff with a worse hand.

It's close and a bet doesn't seem wrong but depends on if you opponent is a caller or willing to fold.

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

[ QUOTE ]
But if you read my other post I *should* be getting action from worse hands, if he thinks I am still drawing on 6th. Ok, if this guy is the typical weak-tight river player I'm perhaps not getting great value, but as I said in this case I should definitely bet any total river brick, so this can't be "horrible" no matter which player type he is.

[/ QUOTE ]
The issue in this hand between bluffing the river or betting it for value is that when you bluff you're laying 1BB to win the pot, but when you value bet you're laying 1BB to win 1BB. With a pot this size, a bluff only has to work 14%+ of the time to show a profit, but a value bet has to be called and won 50%+ and raised 0% (or the calls have to be even more frequent if you may be raised).

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are check/calling then what's different with bet and being called.

[/ QUOTE ]You might bet and get raised?

Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are check/calling then what's different with bet and being called.

[/ QUOTE ]There's a huge difference.

To begin with, if your opponent actually has a very strong draw the ten isn't an equity favorite. Depending on his hand you've got something like 45% prior to betting. So the hand has a ton of showdown value, but it hasn't got value on the actual betting.

The only better hands you can get rid of is possibly tens and nines, and that's not hands he has very often, nor are guaranteed to lay down. If he thinks you're betting 100% of your hands on 5th and 6th hands like nines and tens has decent equity.

So it is a crappy bluffing hand, since most of the laydowns it generates it would've won anyway and hasn't got value if your opponent was drawing to a seven or better.

Further, a good player with a very strong draw is going to be raising quite a lot when your best hand is a six and your probable hand is a seven and there's a good possibility you're actually paired. I'm thinking he'll raise any smooth seven or better coupled with a some of the bricks.

And you're also going to valuebet a lot of other hands in your range. Remember, T7 is in your bottom 15% due to there being so many 76:s from when you didn't actually pair going to the river.

[ QUOTE ]
You lose the same amount either way. The only difference comes if he'd fold when you bet with him having an 8, 9 or 10.

[/ QUOTE ]You also lose out on any bluffs he would have made had you checked.

I think there may be some value betting against the guy described in the top post. But that's because he sounds he's very loose and plays the river too passively.