Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

Long story short: I've gotten several requests to do something like this. Good news: I spent less than two hours tossing around a push/fold strategy and believe I have it down. Equally good news: This *will* result in (my best guess) around a 20% ROI if you follow the instructions exactly, at least once I get the bubble system's kinks worked out. Bad news: I've got the bar exam to prep for and this is strictly a (limited) spare time task until the end of next week, so this is going out here now. Please pick it apart in the meantime and I'll get something workable out after the 28'th.

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Adanthar’s 10+1 Robotic Strategy Guide (or, how to pwn saabpo)
Note: I make absolutely no claim that this is the optimal way to play. It’s not, and you shouldn’t. However, I do believe following this handout to the letter will make money over time (my guess is this will result in around a 20% ROI) on any amount of tables you choose. The idea is for a relative that knows nothing about poker except the hand rankings to be able to beat the game for spending money. Enjoy! (This is a beta version, if that.)

Note: If you are on the bubble (4 players) during levels 1-5 *and* are over 8 BB, proceed according to the instructions set out for those levels. If you are on the bubble during level 6 or later *or* on the bubble and under 8 BB, refer to the special bubble section.

Levels 1-2 (800 chips, 10/15 and 15/30 blinds):
Early position (UTG, UTG+1, UTG+2):
-Open push AA-QQ
-Limp JJ-TT and AK. Call a raise of up to 50 chips (in level 1) or 100 chips (in level 2) either in front or behind you. If you flop a set, an overpair, or, in the case of AK, top pair, and there was a raise behind you, checkraise all in on the flop. If the flop is monotone, it was checked through, or there has not been a raise, push at your first opportunity. Otherwise, check/fold to any action.
-Limp 99-22 and AQ, but do not call a raise either in front or behind you unless it is a minimum raise. If you flop a set, an overpair or top pair, checkraise all in on the flop, unless it is monotone (in that case, open push). If the flop is checked through, push the turn. Otherwise, check/fold to any action.
-Fold all other hands.

Middle position (MP1, MP2, MP3):
-Open push AA-JJ and AKs regardless of limpers or raisers in front
-Limp TT-99 and AKo and call a raise of up to 50/100 chips either in front or behind you. If you flop a set, an overpair or TPTK, push the flop; else, check/fold
-Limp 88-22 and AQ/AJs, regardless of the number of limpers, but do not call a raise unless it is a minimum raise. If you flop a set or top pair, push on the flop (if it is checked through and you hit either on the turn, push the turn, etc.). Otherwise, check/fold to any action.
-Fold all other hands.

Late position (CO, button)
-Open push AA-JJ and AKs/AKo regardless of limpers or raisers in front
-Push TT-99 and AQ if there are 2+ limpers and no one has yet raised; if there has been a raise, refer to the instructions on early/middle position
-Limp 88-22 and AJ if there has been no raise regardless of the number of limpers; if there has been a raise for 50/100 chips or less, call 88-22 but fold AJ. If you flop a set, 10 out draw (such as 88 on a 976 board), or top pair (with AJ), push the flop. If you have 88-77, flop an overpair, and it is checked to you, also push the flop. Otherwise, check/fold to any action.
-Fold all other hands.

SB:
-In level 1, complete with any two cards if there has been no raise. If there has been a raise, it is level 2, or you have a hand that is mentioned above, follow the instructions for early position.
-If you flop TPTK, 2 pair or better, checkraise all in unless the flop is monotone (in that case, open push). If the flop is checked through, push the turn.
-If you flop a nut straight draw (such as JT on a 98x flop) or any flush draw, check/call a bet up to ¾ the pot without regard to pot size, but do not call if there has been a bet and a raise. If you then face a bet on the turn for which you have the odds to continue, call that as well. If you make your draw at any point, checkraise all in. Otherwise, fold.
-Fold all other hands on the flop.

BB:
Follow the SB instructions if there has been no raise. If there has been a raise, refer to the instructions for early position.

Level 3 (25/50 blinds)
EP:
-Open push AA-JJ and AK regardless of the action
-Fold all other hands

MP:
-Open push AA-JJ and AK regardless of the action in front so far
-If no one has entered, or someone has merely limped, push TT-99 and AQ
-Fold all other hands

LP:
-Push AA-JJ and AK regardless of the action so far
-Push TT-88 and AQ-AJ if there has been no raise, regardless of limpers
-If you are on the button and there are 1-3 limpers, also push 77-66 and AT
-Fold all other hands

SB:
-Follow the instructions for early position

BB:
-If you have a hand mentioned in any of the ‘level 3’ instructions and there has been no raise, push it regardless of the number of limpers
-If you do not, check and proceed according to the instructions for SB levels 1-2 (exception: if you flop a draw you estimate at 8 outs or better, checkraise all in on any flop; if it is checked through and you do not make the draw, check/fold to any further action)

Levels 4-6: (50/100, 75/150, 100/200)
EP:
-Open push AA-TT, AK-AQ regardless of the action
-If you are under 6 BB, push any pair, any ace and any two Broadway
-Fold all other hands

MP:
-Open push AA-TT, AK-AQ regardless of the action
-Push 99-77, AJ-AT, KQ-KJs if there has been no raise
-If you have under 6 BB, and it has been folded to you, push any pair, any ace, K5+/Kxs, Q7/Q5s, J9/J8s, T9s
-Fold all other hands

LP:
-Open push AA-TT, AK-AQ regardless of the action
-Push 99-55, AJ-A7, KQ-KT, QJ if there has been no raise
-If you have under 6 BB, and it has been folded to you, push any pair, any ace, any king, Q5/Qxs, J7/J5s, T8/T7s, 98/97s
-Fold all other hands

SB:
-If there has been an EP raise, push AA-TT, AK-AQ
-If there has been an MP or LP raise, push 99-88, AJ-AT and KQs
-If there has been no raise, you have under 6 BB, and there are 1-3 limpers, push with any pair, any ace, and any two Broadway; if you have over 6 BB, push AA-55, AJ-A8, KQ-KJ and QJs
-If it has been folded to you and you are under 6 BB, push any two cards; if over 6 BB, push any pair, any ace and any two Broadway
-Fold all other hands

BB:
-If there has been no raise, and you flop a 12 out draw (such as an overcard + flush draw) or better (top pair+), checkraise all in on any flop, or push the turn if the flop is checked through
-If there has been an EP raise, reraise all in with AA-TT, AK-AQ
-If there has been an MP or LP raise, reraise all in with AA-88, AK-AJ
-If anyone open raises and you are getting more than 2:1 to call an all in, call with any two cards
-If the button or SB open raises and you are getting under 2:1, call with any ace, any pair and any two Broadway down to QT (if they make a standard raise rather than pushing, you should reraise all in with all of these, instead)
-Check/fold all other hands.

If there are still > 4 people left after 100/200, play using these instructions until you reach the bubble.

Bubble and ITM play:
I have made a small point system, similar to Sklansky’s System, governing bubble play. It is by no means perfect and ignores big stack play entirely, but should be good enough to achieve a decent ROI at this limit. Feel free to critique the hell out of it – if the rest is a beta, this is pre-alpha. The details are as follows:
-You start off with a point value for each position (5 for UTG, 3 for the button, 2 for the SB and 0 for the BB.)
-Add 1 point for each BB that you have (round down), up to the maximum that your opponents you are pushing into have (if you have 7 BB and they have 5, only count 5)
-Add 2 points if there is a bigger stack behind you
-Add 4 points if someone has already raised or went all in
-Add 6 points if you are pushing into a bigger stack *and* there is a short stack (3 BB or less) in the game, or if someone has already raised/went all in and been called.
-Subtract 4 points if you are the biggest remaining stack [unless you are heads up]
-Subtract 6 points if you are 3 handed (in the money)
-Subtract 12 points if you are heads up

Find your total amount of points on this chart. If your hand is worth that many points or more, push. Otherwise, fold.
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Over 18 points: Push AA-QQ, fold any other hand
16: Add JJ-TT, AK
14: 99-88, AQ
12: 77, AJ-AT, KQ
10: 66, A9-A8, Axs, KJ/KTs, QJs
8: 55-44, any ace, KT/K9s, QT/Q9s, JTs
6: 33-22, K8/Kxs, Q7/Qxs, J7/J8s, T8/T9s
4: Any king or queen not listed, J5/Jxs, T6/Txs, 96/94s, 86/84s, 76/75s, 65s
2: Any Broadway not listed, any two suited cards
0: Any other hand
Special: If you are the BB and are getting over 2:1 to call an all in, call with any two cards.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

Good guide, but i think open pushing is terrible early on. Getting big hands paid off in a sng is essential.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

Wow, that's really quite impressive. Great Guide!
Edit: I disagree about open pushing, you'll get looked up a lot in 10's, and if you wanted I'm sure he could add a standard open raise to 100 if no one entered and push any flop. Today in a 10 dollar I reraised all in KK with blinds at 15/25 and got two callers, 76suited and A8o (lost the hand) but oh well.

The point is to make a robotic allin preflop guide and quite frankly at the 10's there are enough bad players to make open pushing acceptable.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

At a quick glance I think the lvl 4-6 pushing standards seem incredibly loose. A less than 6BB stack doesn't necessarily mean utter desperation.. Like pushing Q5 or J9 from MP [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

It would be great to make detailed pushing tables like the one's featured in 2+2 Magazine for all the positions and not just from SB.

Anyways, this is a great effort and initiative, and it's fun to see where it's going to develop. I think it would be a good idea for anyone who plays SNG's (or any other form of poker) to try writing a how-to-play book if only to clarify and train one's own play.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

I agree about the early open pushing being a problem. Someone playing the $11s should probably comment, but I don't think you get called enough.

I think it would be preferable to make a still crazyish raise like 5xPot, and then pretty liberal rules for check/raising or open pushing the flop.

The bit about having odds to call a draw on the turn should probably just get some kind of rule of thumb.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

I'm weeping with joy right now.

Regards
Brad S

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

I guess it would complicate the guide a bit but maybe raise to something like 7-10BB early unless blinds are high enough that that would pot commit you and then simply open push. Playing KK and QQ on a flop with overcards complicates things somewhat however, which is why if this is a robotic guide its simply better to push than let AX see a flop and call an autopush and fold anything else. And if you open push on the first or second hand of a tourney your chances of being called seemingly goes up dramatically. Open pushing certainly isn't the best strategy but its the easiest. Our goal is to win without ever actually playing poker here [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Plus I see pocket 5's etc. calling pushes like this regularly. (they want their coinflip for the chiplead early!)

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edited

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it would complicate the guide a bit but maybe raise to something like 7-10BB early unless blinds are high enough that that would pot commit you and then simply open push. Playing KK and QQ on a flop with overcards complicates things somewhat however.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's so complicated. It could be something like: "Raise 5BB with AA-JJ UTG or 5BB + 1BB for every limper ahead of you. Never fold aces on the flop. With KK-JJ bet 2/3 of the pot if you are first to act, and fold to a bet or raise if there is an A or two other overcards on the flop. If called, check/fold turn if there is an A or 2 other overcards. Otherwise, bet 2/3 of the pot (or go all-in) again. When the flop is safe, always bet, reraise and call raises until you are all-in." Or maybe just any one overcards is scary enough. And I think it could be profitable to do something like this with TT too. Maybe not raise if there are early limpers.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

nm

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

I think your underestimating the skill level of the 10+1 players, if this system beats the rake I would be very surprised.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good guide, but i think open pushing is terrible early on. Getting big hands paid off in a sng is essential.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree I think open pushing will get played off plenty for this to work, plus its for newbies that wont play their hand well post flop so they wont have to deal w/ raising kk or qq utg and getting 4 calllers

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

[ QUOTE ]

However this:

[ QUOTE ]
Special: If you are the BB and are getting over 2:1 to call an all in, call with any two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think needs to have a qualifier for what it is gonna do to your stack if you lose. I do this always if it is 1/3rd of my stack or less to call. To have people doing this for 75% of their chips I dunno if thats good. Maybe up to 1/2 their stack...

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. For 75% of your stack, you have to do it. For less than 20% of your stack, you have to do it. In the middle is where it gets dicey. As a general rule, "just do it" is fine.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm weeping with joy right now.

Regards
Brad S

[/ QUOTE ]

...because your name can now be unhooked from the content of that post benfranklin made a while ago I assume. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good guide, but i think open pushing is terrible early on. Getting big hands paid off in a sng is essential.

[/ QUOTE ]


I disagree, the open pushing prevents any dangerous post flop situations, and you'll often be called by substandard hands that will double you up, allowing you to cruise to the bubble where your aggression should take over.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

I would have to evaluate a lot of game factors to make the call in your scenario. It's not always a call and it's not always a fold. You're right. I might have been extreme in the numbers I used, but I think there is an important point your suggestions misses. There are some situations where it is appropriate to call an all-in because it represents a small fraction of your stack, you expect the pusher has a nearly random hand, and you are getting good pot odds. There are also situations in which it is appropriate to call all-in on the BB because you are so short stacked that folding almost never allows you to move up a place. I concede 2:1 is probably not good enough, but I hope it makes sense that I'm suggesting a higher-end cutoff for the stack percentage where you can fold to an all-in on the BB. A better suggestion might be call getting 2:1 for less than 25% of your stack, or greater than 3:1 for more than 75% of your stack.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

Nice. As you noted, the bubble section needs some work. Anyone following this will miss a lot of pushes, especially from the SB.

For example, suppose it's folded to you in the SB on the bubble with a stack of a little over 1200 at 150/300 blinds. BB has about 1500. That's 2 points for SB + 2 points for bigger stack behind + 4 points for stack size. So you have a total of 8 and push 55-44, any ace, KT/K9s, QT/Q9s, JTs. In reality, you probably need to push any two there.

Position is more of a multiplicative effect than an additive one. I haven't thought this through completely, but what about something like multiplying stack size in BB times 0 for SB, 1 for button, 2 for UTG, then add your other factors?

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

i'm gonna sticky this one for 24-48 hours. seems like a good idea.

citanul

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm gonna sticky this one for 24-48 hours. seems like a good idea.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

I have mixed feelings about this...

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

How come no one has flamed me for my horrendous advice, lol.. I wrote this just before going to sleep:

[ QUOTE ]
"Raise 5BB with AA-JJ UTG or 5BB + 1BB for every limper ahead of you. Never fold aces on the flop. With KK-JJ bet 2/3 of the pot if you are first to act, and fold to a bet or raise if there is an A or two other overcards on the flop. If called, check/fold turn if there is an A or 2 other overcards. Otherwise, bet 2/3 of the pot (or go all-in) again. When the flop is safe, always bet, reraise and call raises until you are all-in." Or maybe just any one overcards is scary enough. And I think it could be profitable to do something like this with TT too. Maybe not raise if there are early limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must've meant something like check-folding if there is A or two overcards and betting (when first/checked to) and then folding to a bet/raise or going to check/fold mode if called when there is one lesser overcard than A. When there are NO overcards, then get all your chips in the middle. To a robot-n00b I think OK advice is to always aim for all the opponents chips with any overpair.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

Think that this'll work with 22s and 33s as well?

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

"Think this will work at the 11s?" is a more apt question at this present time.

Phill

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm weeping with joy right now.

Regards
Brad S

[/ QUOTE ]

That made me spit my coffee all over my desk. Thanks for the laugh. In 3 months you're hoping everyone will refer back to the 'Adanthar guide?'

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Think that this'll work with 22s and 33s as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's possible that it'd turn a small profit, but if you're playing those levels, you should be able to think for yourself. Not sure why anyone would need a "system" at those levels.

FWIW, there's no doubt in my mind that this would work at the $11's. The hard part is following the system verbatum in real-time.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

I've recently (over 6 months) played over 3000 $11's I agree that open pushing early (guide says do this with AA-QQ lvl 1-2) WON'T get called enough under normal table conditions. BUT, there are two considerations I'd like to point out. Perhaps they are obvious...

1) If there are 9-10 players still in and the betting has been 'big' for 2 hands or more, then someone is going to take you on...many times with A4o or 65s. These table conditions are NOT rare at the $11's. But after the first two people are gone the table will generally tighten up (calling all-ins, that is) as reality sets in. So, normally, I wouldn't open push, but the $11's are OFTEN abnormal...alot of the skill in beating them is figuring out which are which quickly so you can apply the right strategy.

2) The two biggest errors people make in the $11's are preflop hand selection and calling too much post-flop. These are easy to exploit early and I believe that it is more +ev to string it out. Of course, you'll get drawn out on some, but you would be with the push as well. Further, decent post-flop play (knowing when to shut the betting down or letting it go on) can mitigate some damage. This strengthens the argument against open pushing AA-QQ early, I think.


But, ok, Adanthar is saying a guide for ROBOTIC PLAY. Then pushing is probably best. Any other approach is going to require thinking on some level, "how can I get the most out of this hand given what I've seen at the table so far?" Now we are past robotic play...


Be well

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

I look at this like the sklansky system in TPFAP. Except MTTs are much much easier to quantify into an 'easy' system than STTs are.

Phill

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

Saabpo would've been proud of you.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

jesus 3k 11's? you know pp has $22 sng's right?

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

[ QUOTE ]
jesus 3k 11's? you know pp has $22 sng's right?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. Most of those were early on and I have played up since then! Stayed down for alot of reasons...constantly raping the bankroll so I could justify my 'poker time' and, importantly, after my first 1000 I had about 5% ROI and figured I still sucked enough to stay. Then, it became a matter of really buckling down and studying my game and I wanted to see if my retooling would stand up over the long haul...which by that point I had realized was pretty damn long. So, that's that. I still play down when I'm drinking...

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

QQ= all-in
KK=300
AA=200..instead of pushing all 3, thats my opinion.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Special: If you are the BB and are getting over 2:1 to call an all in, call with any two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this should be 3:1 rather than 2:1. degan's example makes 2:1 look too small.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

I didnt read the guide carefully but it looks fine. I disagree with the early level overpushing, I mean who is the guy that said something about postflop play.
However I think the early on play is really cool, and really helpful,check-raising for instance (which makes me angry because I had to play 500 sngs before realizing that)However with dangerous boards its better to be agressive right away.
I agree with level 3 overpushing and Im using it myself lately.
Late on Looks fine.
Bubble play , Ill try an example.
blinds: 200/400
UTG 2500.folded
Button(me)2000. AJ
SB.2500
BB 1000.
3 pts for the button. 3
2 pts. for bigger stack. 5
6 pts. for bonus. 11
And 5 BB. 16
Ok lets see...well, the guide says a fold...i think its a push.
Another example.
blinds:100/200
UTG..4000. folded
button(me)2000 KQ
SB 1000
BB 1000
this a mega-obvious push and I made it on purpose so that ure system proves it right.
3 pts. on the button.3
5 BB.8
should I substract 4 points or not????
anyway..clear push!!!

Ok now Im putting an example to screw ure system.
blinds:250/500
UTG.500 .folded
Button.5000.All-in.
SB.1000. folded.
BB.1500 .23o.

The same exmaple above but with AT and 150/300 blinds.
UTG.500.folded
button.5000. All-in
SB.1000.folded
BB.1500.AT
I would fold here.
0 point for the BB.
5 BB.5
4 points for AI.9
6 ptBonus.15
15 points..AND ITS A FOLD!!! woooo...go adanthar!!!!!

Anyway ure system is really decent, I mean if someone is stupid enough to call with 23o no guide can save them. The bubble guide can be fixed and be worked out, the weak point of the bubble guide IMO is play with very short stacks.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

I've read it, but I really don't like open-pushing with Aces. Don't you want to get paid off? I think betting 250, then pushing on any flop is better.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

Sometimes if you get AA in the first or second hand of an SNG it can be very +EV to push, I've been called by K8o and 73s in those conditions, doesn't happen very often though.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

To everyone who is saying how the open pushing is bad, Andathar says its NOT the optimal way to play. The optimal way to play can not be put in a one post strategy guide.

That being said I open pushed KK @ a 55 at 3 or 4 am last night. A9s called, and with how the games were going I was suprised I didn't get called in more places...

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

Thank you for making all the people (read: me) who couldn't beat the $11s feel like idiots.

I sure hope to god this works, because the $2 in profit I have over my first 75 $11s is certainly under 20% ROI.

Re: Adanthar\'s Robotic 10+1 Strategy Guide v. 1 (early beta)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for making all the people (read: me) who couldn't beat the $11s feel like idiots.

I sure hope to god this works, because the $2 in profit I have over my first 75 $11s is certainly under 20% ROI.

[/ QUOTE ]
*cough* insufficient sample size *cough*