Lag donk bets
 

Here's another hand from my downswing that has me questioning my play. UTG in this hand is a loose calling station. BB is a LAGfish (50/19/3 type) and I've caught him 3-betting flop check-raises with A high after he raised pre-flop.

UTG limps, I raise A9o on the Button, BB calls.

Flop is Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB bets, UTG calls, I raise??

Re: Lag donk bets
 

jesus dont raise

when ur ahead u dont have much of an equity edge when ur behind ur well behind

just calling also lets u fold really cheap sometimes. like if bb bets turn and utg raises or something

Re: Lag donk bets
 

Raising is strictly superior to just calling, And I dont think you can fold on the flop here.

Re: Lag donk bets
 

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Raising is strictly superior to just calling, And I dont think you can fold on the flop here.

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Folding was never a question against this guy. There are a lot of draws here and he would probably donk bet with a worse 9, in addition to top pair. With the other guy coming along with his whole range it felt like a standard raise to me.

Re: Lag donk bets
 

oh well i guess thats settled

Re: Lag donk bets
 

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Raising is strictly superior to just calling

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LOL
thank you professor

Re: Lag donk bets
 

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Raising is strictly superior to just calling, And I dont think you can fold on the flop here.

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Would you mind explaining why???

Abs, I'd call and most likely call down unless very scary cards fall on the turn and river.

Re: Lag donk bets
 

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Raising is strictly superior to just calling, And I dont think you can fold on the flop here.

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Do yourself a favor and stop posting like this.

Explain why you think it is so.

Raising this flop is a mistake for the reasons Gehrig mentioned.

Re: Lag donk bets
 

can't help it
must take another cheap shot at noob

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any other poster in this thread is strictly superior to just ThxBearl, And I dont think you can have people take you seriously if you keep making insanely pompous posts here.

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Re: Lag donk bets
 

I dont think raising would ever have entered my mind on this. Without the Ace kicker I probably would even consider folding this.

Re: Lag donk bets
 

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Without the Ace kicker I probably would even consider folding this.

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UGH! Please dont fold 9x in position getting 8:1 closing the action. Not even close man

Re: Lag donk bets
 

haha ok well, I would raise on the flop to take control of the hand making your turn decision a lot easier and to isolate the UTG caller. On the turn you can check and see a river cheaply or fire again if you improve. I would also bet the turn most of the time if one of the players folded on the flop to your raise. This seems a lot better to me than just calling it down as you dont have any information, Unless of course you get 3-bet which is probably not gonna happen since you raised preflop.

Re: Lag donk bets
 

A) what are you gonna do with the information?

B) What information are you talking about? You say that they wont 3-bet much. Well then what do you learn from them calling?


Cliff notes: Raising for "information" and "to take control of the pot" are misapplied concepts. There is little if any value in these things and what you need is to look at the board, figure out a range and strategy for your villains and then act accordingly.


Raising this flop and then checking turn is not optimal as you will be handing out free cards on a drawy board everytime you are ahead - and since you bloated the pot on the flop this mistake is magnified. Just calling the flop and then betting the turn when checked to does not hand out free cards and makes it easy for you to fold the turn if both players stays in and a bad card drops.

Re: Lag donk bets
 

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haha ok well, I would raise on the flop to take control of the hand making your turn decision a lot easier and to isolate the UTG caller. On the turn you can check and see a river cheaply or fire again if you improve. I would also bet the turn most of the time if one of the players folded on the flop to your raise. This seems a lot better to me than just calling it down as you dont have any information, Unless of course you get 3-bet which is probably not gonna happen since you raised preflop.

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in addition to what oink said you often won't be able to see the river cheaply as one of the villains will often donk the turn.

Re: Lag donk bets
 

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haha ok well, I would raise on the flop to take control of the hand making your turn decision a lot easier and to isolate the UTG caller. On the turn you can check and see a river cheaply or fire again if you improve. I would also bet the turn most of the time if one of the players folded on the flop to your raise. This seems a lot better to me than just calling it down as you dont have any information, Unless of course you get 3-bet which is probably not gonna happen since you raised preflop.

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in addition to what oink said you often won't be able to see the river cheaply as one of the villains will often donk the turn.

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This is also true sometimes, But if you are planning to show this hand down I think raising on the flop is the right play as your going to be able to do it cheaper than just calling down. + you can always just turn the A or 9 [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Lag donk bets
 

I think raising does more than get us information....it gives us an option of potentially having a cheaper showdown if a river blanks. Also would you have to have an A or 9 of clubs for the runner runner? I dont think that was mentioned and shouldnt be overlooked when considering the value of our hand.

Re: Lag donk bets
 

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haha ok well, I would raise on the flop to take control of the hand making your turn decision a lot easier and to isolate the UTG caller. On the turn you can check and see a river cheaply or fire again if you improve. I would also bet the turn most of the time if one of the players folded on the flop to your raise. This seems a lot better to me than just calling it down as you dont have any information, Unless of course you get 3-bet which is probably not gonna happen since you raised preflop.

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in addition to what oink said you often won't be able to see the river cheaply as one of the villains will often donk the turn.

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This is also true sometimes, But if you are planning to show this hand down I think raising on the flop is the right play as your going to be able to do it cheaper than just calling down. + you can always just turn the A or 9 [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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i'm not sure it will be cheaper on average in today's aggressive games. even if it's slightly cheaper to showdown, it's more expensive to draw (which would come into play if villain 3-bets for example). finally, cheaper is not always better, for example if you only showdown cheaply against hands that beat you without getting value from bluffs.

Re: Lag donk bets
 

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This is also true sometimes, But if you are planning to show this hand down I think raising on the flop is the right play as your going to be able to do it cheaper than just calling down. + you can always just turn the A or 9 [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Overall I seriously doubt that raising the flop will make it cheaper to get to SD. Much too often villain will be screwing your plan by donking or c/r'ing the turn.

Re: Lag donk bets
 

a.) you cant fold flop with your odds
b.) its small stakes and people donk the flop with jack [censored] enough to make a raise valid
c.) its small stakes and people will c-bet like bitches with jack [censored] if they feel you're weak
d.) taking b and c into consideration, calling the flop will not give us a better idea of what kind of hand the lag has.
e.) as mentioned, we probably won't see too many c/r on the turn when we raise pf and raise the flop...if we do we can probably safely fold
f.) i think showing this hand down is the best option, and raising the flop will make this sd the cheapest the majority of the time