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-   -   He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue) (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=558668)

TheWorstPlayer 12-01-2007 01:45 PM

He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
Villain is Gogol's Nose, MTBlue from 2+2. He's very tough and a very big winner and he has gotten the best of me most of the time over the past two years or whatever. We haven't played much recently, though, since I took 4 months off from poker, pretty much.

Poker Stars, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $541
BB: $1,288.25
UTG: $3,124.35
TWP (MP): $1,369
CO: $1,302
BTN: $408

Pre-Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to TWP (MP)
UTG folds, <font color="red">TWP raises to $40</font>, 3 folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $140</font>, TWP calls $100

Flop: ($285) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $180</font>, TWP calls $180

Turn: ($645) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, TWP checks

River: ($645) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $968.25 and is All-In</font>, TWP...?

too eazy 12-01-2007 02:22 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
Seems like an easy fold without any metagame from this particular session.

TheWorstPlayer 12-01-2007 02:34 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
Why? Isn't my range really weak here? Why would he shove a real hand?

c_hoop 12-01-2007 02:40 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
he knows you have a full house and he's not trying to push you off of it.

TheWorstPlayer 12-01-2007 02:43 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
what about spades, 89, 9T, etc. and if i have a FH, it's almost definitely not a strong one...

Triumph36 12-01-2007 02:43 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
twp got zeebowned

TheWorstPlayer 12-01-2007 02:48 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
http://gogumagog.justgotowned.com/

Triumph36 12-01-2007 03:06 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
also in the 'he knows i know he knows' category - he knows you hate folding. he's checking a lot of hands on the turn that are strong, too.

mustmuck 12-01-2007 03:07 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
Isn't 77-TT the majority of your range here? Especially with the flop/turn combo.

TheWorstPlayer 12-01-2007 03:10 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't 77-TT the majority of your range here? Especially with the flop/turn combo.

[/ QUOTE ]
probably. so does that mean i should call or fold? i can also have hands like AA here, fwiw.

Boquense 12-01-2007 03:18 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
I think it's more unlikely that you have AA if he does.

mustmuck 12-01-2007 03:18 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't 77-TT the majority of your range here? Especially with the flop/turn combo.

[/ QUOTE ]
probably. so does that mean i should call or fold? i can also have hands like AA here, fwiw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's the core question here. I guess the simplistic answer is that MTBlue is applying Zebo and expects you to call. Certainly the push wouldn't make me think he's bluffing more often, as it's an obvious spot to value push rather than bet smaller.

TheWorstPlayer 12-01-2007 03:19 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
aight - so i guess you all think i should fold...

Donkey-Milker 12-01-2007 03:33 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
i doubt he has the case J or a Q.... ruling out AA and KK too as he would bet the turn. i call.

blankoblanco 12-01-2007 03:38 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
you called and snapped off a bluff, nh. i'd still probably fold though

Dan Terra 12-01-2007 03:43 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
[ QUOTE ]
i doubt he has the case J or a Q.... ruling out AA and KK too as he would bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

uhhhhh lol?

Bullitos 12-01-2007 03:45 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
I don't know about 3bettings history between you and villain, but pushing this flop makes the hand easier to play and may get him to shut down vs. you in the future. Since he has the threat of facing tough decisions in a 3bet pot with you.

MTBlue 12-01-2007 03:48 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
I push my whole range on this river. That being said its probably a fold.

Triumph36 12-01-2007 03:49 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I push my whole range on this river. That being said its probably a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

does not compute

also i think that's a terrible river to push your whole range esp against villain

TheWorstPlayer 12-01-2007 03:53 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I push my whole range on this river. That being said its probably a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

does not compute

also i think that's a terrible river to push your whole range esp against villain

[/ QUOTE ]

agree. you should only be pushing 99+ since you know i never fold.

MTBlue 12-01-2007 03:55 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
Too much thinking, my range is ahead of your range, easier just to go allin.

TheWorstPlayer 12-01-2007 03:56 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
fair enuf. i hate you.

Melchiades 12-01-2007 04:02 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
[ QUOTE ]
he knows you have a full house and he's not trying to push you off of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Irish Mafia 12-01-2007 04:54 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Why? Isn't my range really weak here? Why would he shove a real hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know villain - but i would say YES he would. Your hand looks pretty much like exactly what you have. And he knows his shove looks bluffy. I'd fold.

STA654 12-01-2007 05:24 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
All depends on how wide his 3 betting range is.

If it is: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, QJ

Then it's a fold.

If it's wider, IE lots of suited connectors, suited 1-gappers, I like calling.

TheWorstPlayer 12-01-2007 05:42 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
his range is pretty wide. he is very good.

G_Dollaz 12-01-2007 06:29 PM

Re: He knows I know he knows (5/10 vs MTBlue)
 
I don't think he expects you to fold, I mean you are TWP... not as bad as bluffing polyballer, but close, lol. B/c of that I think it's a fold, I think you went a few levels too deep on this particular hand


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