Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Review
 

Tried this before, got no responses and I didn't want to leave it up while I was gone, but I guess I'll just leave this and keep coming back to it.

Top 10% grades at a Top 20-30 school. Graded onto law review. Put in less hours than probably 90% of my class. I will also bump this in fall once I'm knee deep in OCI and callbacks. I'm trying for BigLaw in Boston, SF, and NYC.

Obviously not all of my advice would apply to everyone. Just one guy's opinions.

So, any questions?

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

Why do you want to work in BigLaw (I'm assuming that's what you want to do when you get out too)?

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you want to work in BigLaw (I'm assuming that's what you want to do when you get out too)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm one of the suckers that is looking for a quality of life Big Firm, and I know that none of those truly exist, but there are some that are worse/better than others.

Thanks to scholarships, I have significantly less loans than most, but still up near six figures. I'd like to get that paid off asap.

I also feel like it helps keep my options open more for possible lateral moves to in-house counsel, government work, etc. I am still not really sure exactly what practice areas I will be looking into, although right now litigation and real estate are two that stick out to me, and I know that you can move to the business side if you get experience and develop some contacts while at a big firm.

I know thats it is not for everyone, but I have talked to some people that are genuinely happy at top firms, and usually work like 9-7 moday to friday and then do like 4-8 hours on the weekends. Obviously there will be weeks of crazy hours, but I think I can handle that.


I don't see myself staying at a big firm and getting on the partner track, but if i enjoy it, who knows.



Cliff notes: Money, future opportunities, etc.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

Good thing you brought this back. I'm trying to get into a top 25 law school; I'm going into junior year with a 3.7 at a mid-tier undergrad school - what kind of grades/LSAT would I need to counter the quality of the school I'm going to right now?

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

You said you did it with minimal studying. How much time did you devote to studying and what strategies did you use?

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good thing you brought this back. I'm trying to get into a top 25 law school; I'm going into junior year with a 3.7 at a mid-tier undergrad school - what kind of grades/LSAT would I need to counter the quality of the school I'm going to right now?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very impressive GPA, I don't think where you went to undergrad matters as much as some people think unless you go to Harvard/Yale/Stanford or to a community college on the other end. Schools will get an avg. LSAT/GPA for people from your school to compare you against.

People generally talk about the T14 (per USNEWS) although that is really tiered into HYS>>>Columbia/NYU/Chicago>>>>>>rest.

Two good resources are on the lsac.org website there is a gps/lsat calculator and also www.lawschoolnumbers.com provides real people's results.

Just make sure that you don't get too excited until you see who is and is not a minority as URM seem to get a healthy bump.


As for LSAT, the difference in a couple points means nothing as far as intelligence, but could mean everything as far as admission.

I had a 3.5 in college and got a 172 on the LSAT. I got into some T14 schools, but I knew what I wanted, took the money at a lower ranked school, because i was confident I could do well enough to get the jobs I was interested in. In retrospect, maybe I should have gone to the higher school for clerkship or possible academia opportunities, but I will be happily graduating with 100k less in loans than if I went to a higher ranked school.


As for the LSAT, practice full length timed tests. Develope a strategy. With your GPA, if you're not scoring in the 170s you can probably do better. Maybe take a class if and only if you will do the assignments they tell you to do. You can do it on your own, but sometimes the structure of a class is nice.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
You said you did it with minimal studying. How much time did you devote to studying and what strategies did you use?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not counting the last couple weeks of the semester when its basically all day, or when memos were due, when it was all day, I rarely did any work. Obviously this is not advisable and not practical for most.

My biggest suggestion in terms of getting a good effort:outcome ratio is to realize why you are studying and doing work. This is 1L, you are not here to learn some abstract material. You are in direct competition with your classmates to see who can get the best grades. Believe it or not, the knowledge will come.

Don't do work to prepare for classes, do work to prepare for tests. Sometimes these overlap 100%, but often they do not. Who cares if you look like a shining star in class, its all about that final at the end of the year.

For each class you have, get the textbook and the correspoding High Court Case Summaries, and also get a hornbook such as Examples and Explanations, Gilbert's, Chemerinsky, etc.

Read the case summary, figure out why you are reading this case. Then read the case. Highlight the important bits that correspond to the capsule summary in the commercial brief.

If you still don't get what is going on, go to the hornbook for clarity.


Once you learn the ins and outs of each class some will necessitate more, some less. I had one class where the professor recapped the highlights of the cases up front, which made reading the canned briefs unecessary.

There was another that never mentioned the cases, only the rules, so some times I wouldn't bother reading the cases, only noting what rule they corresponded to.



Unless it is the professor's rule, don't bother making your own outlines. No matter how smart or anal you are, someone has already made a better one, so don't reinvent the wheel. Most schools now have online outline banks, and many (Columbia, NYU, USC) are open to public.

Find the most recent one, hopefully someone that had your professor and same case book. Then use that as your base, and build upon it by trimming down, adding things from your class notes, any new cases, etc. Find flow charts and graphs elsewhere, combine outlines, look to the hornbooks, etc.

I know, I know, some people learn while they write. This may have been true in undergrad, but when there is a 75 page outline waiting for you, spend 10 hours editing it to your liking, instead of 50 making your own.


Study groups:

Don't study with dumb people. If you are constantly the one explaining things to people, stop, make an excuse, and leave.

Thankfully I found a good study group to do practice tests with, so I always got as much out of it as I put in.



Straight numbers? From Sept.-Dec. 1, I probably did <1 hour of work each day, and maybe 3-4 on the weekends.

When it came to the 15 days before finals, then it was time to go all day long.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

Do you have any specific test taking strategies?
Methods you used for issue extraction and answering questions? Formatting your answer?

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

Noah, how does the law review work? Getting into it, advancing to editor, duties, etc?

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
Noah, how does the law review work? Getting into it, advancing to editor, duties, etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

School-specific.

At my school, top 10% automatically get on and then the rest have to do a writing competition. Unfortunately you don't know your grades til after, so some people waste two weeks doing it when they didnt need to. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]


Other schools do only grades, only combo, or some formula combination of both.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have any specific test taking strategies?
Methods you used for issue extraction and answering questions? Formatting your answer?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of the courses/books follow the IRAC (issue, rule, analysis, conclusion) format which is decent.

I think its professor-specific, and don't worry there will be plenty of gunners asking "should we cite cases" "should we cite rules", etc.

Also, most all professors have sample exams and model answers on file that you can look at.

This is far and away the most important part of studying.


Take every available practice test, then discuss answers with study group, then look to model answer.


I find the most important thing is time management and mentioning the smaller things.

When it comes to tests it will be

C through B- : missed big issues

b through B+ : got all the big issues

A- : big issues and smaller issues

A : wrote something that the professor hadn't thought of, or basically nail all the major and minor points.


Some professors have an actual checklist of things that they are looking for and it is a straight add em up numbers game

So, for example,

Theres a question and their checklist will be

A) ____ (10 pts)
A1)____ (3 pts.)
A2)____ (3 pts.)

B)_____(15 pts.)

and they literally go right down the list.



when taking a test always have the professor in mind. for some profs, dropping random cases and names that touch on the subject = stop being fancy while for others, they eat it up.


Time yourself on practice tests just like you did for the LSAT, and keep in mind the personality of the professor.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Review
 

[ QUOTE ]
Top 10% grades at a Top 20-30 school.

[/ QUOTE ]
Still TTT. <font color="white">jk, grats</font>

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Top 10% grades at a Top 20-30 school.

[/ QUOTE ]
Still TTT. <font color="white">jk, grats</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. you must go to xoxo/autoadmit a lot. Apparently anything less than Yale &gt;&gt;&gt;US Supreme Court Clerkship &gt;&gt;&gt; Wachtell is TTT.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

what does TTT mean?

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
what does TTT mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

third tier. its a derogatory way of referring to a non-elite school.

according to USNEWS Rankings there are Top 100, Tier 2, etc.

However, there are lots of law school snobs (no suprise) that refer to anything below like the top ten as TTT.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

How many schools did you apply to? Care to share where you are currently going and which schools you passed up (understandable if you'd rather not)?

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

AZK needs to do one of these threads for med school.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many schools did you apply to? Care to share where you are currently going and which schools you passed up (understandable if you'd rather not)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've talked about it before a bit.

I go to a school ranked 20-30 by US News and World Reports.

I had a 3.5 undergrad at a decent school and 172. Good extracurriculars and recommendations.

I got into a couple T14 schools including Georgetown and Columbia. I turned them down which probably makes me a retard in the eyes of most people. Common sense says go to the highest ranked school you get in to.


Temple with $$$$$$
Notre Dame with $$$$
William and Mary with $$$$
Duke.
BC with $$$.
BU with $$$.
Fordham with $$.
Etc.

Waitlisted at Harvard/NYU/Chicago.

Rejected by Yale/Stanford/Northwestern (NW asks if you want interview, I said no since I only applied there because i got a fee waiver).



When it comes to making a decision, for most people if you get in T14, take it. If dealing with lower level schools, go to the best school in the city where you want to practice. Factor in money as appropriate.

I decided to take the $100k less in loans and skip Columbia/G-town because I knew I likely wanted to be here, I don't have any hopes of being at some super-elite firm or academia, and I knew that I would be able to get top of the class and be competitive for law review, bigfirm jobs, etc. In addition, I live with my girlfriend, my family lives in the city, and I love it here. Including cost of living, expenses, and interest, I probably will end of having saved myself $150k by going to school here.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

Feel free to keep the questions coming. Make them as detailed or random or dumb as you like. As long as it doesn't involve anything too out of line, I'll give answers.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what does TTT mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

third tier toilet. its an abreviated way of reminding people where they stand in life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

I have heard that all law school females are busted beyond belief. Is this true?

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have heard that all law school females are busted beyond belief. Is this true?

[/ QUOTE ]

This girl is in law school.

http://www.barstoolsports.com/img/ga...d90e96020c.jpg


I think she is pretty cute. I'd say that overall, maybe less attractive than college girls, but there are definitely still some hot girls.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

How do you get summer internships/work experience that will prepare you for the legal field as an undergraduate? How important are these when applying to law school in the first place?

From what I know, there seems to be a dearth of opportunities for undergrads in law as opposed to other fields such as i-banking, computer science, engineering, etc.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do you get summer internships/work experience that will prepare you for the legal field as an undergraduate? How important are these when applying to law school in the first place?

From what I know, there seems to be a dearth of opportunities for undergrads in law as opposed to other fields such as i-banking, computer science, engineering, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

At my undergrad we had an internship program for a semester where I worked at a small law firm. If you go to school in a city, contact alumni that are lawyers, and I'm sure during the semester you can find one that wouldn't mind you shadowing them whether it be for a day, or a volunteer intern position for the semester.

If you plan on taking some time off before law school, there are plenty of legal intern/assistant/paralegal type positions that will be mostly administrative work, but will expose you to law.


I also did mock trial and moot court in undergrad. The average age for my school is like 27, meaning lots have advanced degrees or work experience, but its not a necessity.

I think a first career or advanced degree help for law school admission, but a year or two as a paralegal or legal assistant prob won't matter too much. Might help you with the 1L summer job search, but its up to you.

As for finding out if you'll like the work, contacting alumni and getting an internship seems to be your best bet.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what does TTT mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

third tier. its a derogatory way of referring to a non-elite school.

according to USNEWS Rankings there are Top 100, Tier 2, etc.

However, there are lots of law school snobs (no suprise) that refer to anything below like the top ten as TTT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be a nit, but Tier 2 is in the top 100. USNews actually doesn't use the phrase "Tier 2" anywhere, it's Top 100, Tier 3, and Tier 4.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what does TTT mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

third tier. its a derogatory way of referring to a non-elite school.

according to USNEWS Rankings there are Top 100, Tier 2, etc.

However, there are lots of law school snobs (no suprise) that refer to anything below like the top ten as TTT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be a nit, but Tier 2 is in the top 100. USNews actually doesn't use the phrase "Tier 2" anywhere, it's Top 100, Tier 3, and Tier 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its funny that about 95% of the time someone says "not be a nit" they then proceed to be a nit. lol.

but you are correct.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

This is kinda OT but why are so many people so reluctant to post where they go to school?

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is kinda OT but why are so many people so reluctant to post where they go to school?

[/ QUOTE ]

a fairly high percentage of 2+2'ers go to very elite schools and are afraid to sound pretentious? A possibility.

I think that a lot of people in general are reluctant to say where they went to school as people will automatically judge them. This can obviously be a good or bad thing, but it even gets to the point of annoying when I tell people I go to Stanford.

Their mouth drops and they look at me as if I'm some god. I use to think it was cool for a bit but I tend to say that I go to college in the Bay Area now. Even if I'm going to get extra points for that, I'd rather be judged for the work I do and the way I carry myself--not what school I go to.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

Noah,
Care to talk about your experience at the VC (Saw in EDF) and how it will help your career? It seems rather irrelevant to someone who wants to go into big law but I am curious to find you wanting to expand your horizon (which is great because VC is hot as heck).

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is kinda OT but why are so many people so reluctant to post where they go to school?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it may be because people don't want to connect their online persona to their real life identity, and school would be an easy way.

I've posted before where I go to school (BC Law). I don't really care, it wouldnt be too hard to figure out who I was, but it doesn't really matter to me.

So I guess if anyone has any BC specific questions, PM me.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
Noah,
Care to talk about your experience at the VC (Saw in EDF) and how it will help your career? It seems rather irrelevant to someone who wants to go into big law but I am curious to find you wanting to expand your horizon (which is great because VC is hot as heck).

[/ QUOTE ]


Where I work there are a few lawyers, an IP lawyer, accountant, and then various assistants and paralegals. It is all transactional deals, and I spend most of my day drafting or reviewing contracts, leases, venture capital deals, etc. The investment group is based out of Asia, and there are tons of international deals going down, so I'm frequently on the phone with people from India, Amsterdam, Israel, Monaco, etc. Most of the investments are in biotech, although we do a little bit of everything.

It's useful because I am constantly drafting memos (albeit internal ones), drafting and editing contracts, etc.

Not very useful for my interest in litigation, but it pays well for a 1L job, and there are plenty of people working for free this summer.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

Care to go more in depth into your experiences with the Law Review?

Also, I was initially pre-med when I came into college, then journalism for a semester, before settling on a more law oriented major, and as a result it will take me an extra semester to graduate. How much of a detriment to me will this be when applying to law school?

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
Care to go more in depth into your experiences with the Law Review?

Also, I was initially pre-med when I came into college, then journalism for a semester, before settling on a more law oriented major, and as a result it will take me an extra semester to graduate. How much of a detriment to me will this be when applying to law school?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't think it will be a huge deal when applying. They usually only care about the GPA and to a lesser extent the school.



As for law review, maybe I wasn't clear, but I just finished first year and graded on, but I haven't actually done anything other than accept my spot.

I'll make sure to bump this when school gets going to give a TR for both recruiting and to let everyone know what law review is like (for me).

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]

As for law review, maybe I wasn't clear, but I just finished first year and graded on, but I haven't actually done anything other than accept my spot.

I'll make sure to bump this when school gets going to give a TR for both recruiting and to let everyone know what law review is like (for me).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually no, you were perfectly clear, I am at work and was trying to post quickly so it was me who was entirely unclear. What I meant was this:

I know very little about the law review in general aside from that it is a law journal that is run and published by law students and that being a part of it is integral to being recruited by top firms after graduation. Would you mind going more in depth as to what it is and what it entails, eg. Does everyone just get around and discuss cases and laws and then assign articles for people to write? How often is it published? How involved are professors? Are different jobs given out based upon grades (top 3% get first shot at editor or whatever)? How time consuming is it supposed to be? etc, etc.

By the way thanks for fielding these questions as my school doesn't actually have a "pre-law" major so I haven't discussed alot of my questions with my advisor.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As for law review, maybe I wasn't clear, but I just finished first year and graded on, but I haven't actually done anything other than accept my spot.

I'll make sure to bump this when school gets going to give a TR for both recruiting and to let everyone know what law review is like (for me).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually no, you were perfectly clear, I am at work and was trying to post quickly so it was me who was entirely unclear. What I meant was this:

I know very little about the law review in general aside from that it is a law journal that is run and published by law students and that being a part of it is integral to being recruited by top firms after graduation. Would you mind going more in depth as to what it is and what it entails, eg. Does everyone just get around and discuss cases and laws and then assign articles for people to write? How often is it published? How involved are professors? Are different jobs given out based upon grades (top 3% get first shot at editor or whatever)? How time consuming is it supposed to be? etc, etc.

By the way thanks for fielding these questions as my school doesn't actually have a "pre-law" major so I haven't discussed alot of my questions with my advisor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, my UG didn't have pre-law either and I actually heard that it is an awful major, better off just doing any real major. Probably best major would be hard science just given the opportunities for IP work and the rigors inherent in the fields of study.


People always talk about law review as if the time commitment is insane, but I think it depends entirely on your school and the journal you are on. Most schools have a main law review that is titled after the school which is the hardest to get on and is the "most prestigious." There are also secondary journals that narrow their focus to environmental law, international law, etc.


The articles in the review are typically written by professors, lawyers, legal scholars, etc.

(Here is a link to the Cornell Law Review Constitution, which explains the duties of various positions. (link)


Basically you are a staff writer 2L, editor 3L, and you can get your note published, etc. I am not sure how they select Editor-In-Chief, etc.


All I know is that it definitely helps a lot when it comes time for recruiting and membership on a journal is a near-prerequisite if you are interested in clerkships, etc.

It is something that will be on your resume and people will assume a certain level of intelligence and capability, simply based upon membership.


At my school, the top 10% automatically get their choice of journal (pretty much all select the main law review, one everyyear chooses a specialty journal because of interest, etc.)

Then there is a writing competition which consists of a 12-14 page memo, they provide you all the cases, you just write it. There is also a "blubooking" assignment which consists of editing citations.

You list your preferences, they score your submission, and based on that they fill the secondary journals. Since most people that grade on select the main law review, only a few spots are left for the writing competition on that one.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is kinda OT but why are so many people so reluctant to post where they go to school?

[/ QUOTE ]

WHERE DO YOU GO TO SCHOOL HUH?

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is kinda OT but why are so many people so reluctant to post where they go to school?

[/ QUOTE ]

WHERE DO YOU GO TO SCHOOL HUH?

[/ QUOTE ]

EvilJeff is just bitter because he's now getting owned by NYU! LOL.







(pls no BU comments. thanks)

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

procedurely inferior, substantively superior ftw

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Noah, how does the law review work? Getting into it, advancing to editor, duties, etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

School-specific.

At my school, top 10% automatically get on and then the rest have to do a writing competition. Unfortunately you don't know your grades til after, so some people waste two weeks doing it when they didnt need to. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]


Other schools do only grades, only combo, or some formula combination of both.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is definitely not how it was done at my school (Georgetown).

At my school, 50% of the people on the Law Journal were chosen purely based on the writing competition, without regard to grades. The other 50% were chosen based a formula that combined your grades and writing competition score.

I wish our system had been like Noah's, because then I would have gotten on the Law Journal! As it stood, the journal I did join was seriously one of the least fulfilling experiences of my life.

Re: Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Re
 

[ QUOTE ]
the journal I did join was seriously one of the least fulfilling experiences of my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

pretty sure this is standard. I avoided the journal thing. of course now I can't cite for [censored], but we'll see how that goes.