30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4handed
 

First post here, hopefully many more to come once I get to know you guys. The setting is a 4handed 30/60 Limit game, highest one can find in a Toronto casino excpt for 50/100 once a week. Most of us have played in higher limits when available, including one guy who makes his living off of 100/200 games in LA and was just back in town visiting.

So to set the scene, UTG is a strong online and live limit player probably better than me, at the very least break even, we can sense eachother when making moves but he has the best of me in this session. Button is probably the strongest player at the table, 30/60 is low stakes for him but he has been playing a strong game, not just messing around. I'm in SB and the BB is a solid ring game player but too passive for SH. I should also mention I am the only one down at the table rightnow, suffered a few beats so I could be seen as tilting.

UTG folds, Button raises, I 3bet from SB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], BB cold calls, button calls.

Flop is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check, BB checks Button bets, I raise, BB cold calls, Button calls.

I put the BB on a draw, he was passive but would have put in a bet or raise if he had a 7. The button I had no read on all night.

The turn is a blank deuce, i think the 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] -- What do I do here?

My friend who we always analyze hands together suggested that I check-call the turn, possbly throw in a check-raise on a brick river.


I bet the turn, BB calls, Button raises - I call, BB Calls. River is a 9 (dont remember suit but non-spade), I check BB checks, button bets, I call BB folds A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] -- Button shows Q7off


My question is, disregarding the result, is there anywhere I could have folded the hand, given that it is a 4handed game, or could I have saved any bets by checking the turn?



Thanks for any advice, and many more hand analyses to come in the future.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

Welcome to the forums.

First off, what u and ur friend discussed is silly. CR a brick river!?? Why you trying to be so tricky? You played the hand fine, just got cold-decked. You're not folding that hand 4-handed on any street. I think you need to lead the flop, though. Don't altogether mind the CR, though, as long as you lead out on the turn, which you did.

Sounds like you need to practice some game selection too - from your descriptions, sounds like you were the "fish" at the table.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

Given the way it was played is 3 betting the turn nuts?

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given the way it was played is 3 betting the turn nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero is oop and handreading suggests he's probably behind villain's range. Seems like a straightforward calldown.

Flop c/r is bad cuz it polarizes your range too far towards {big pairs/monster draws} too fast imo. It should take them on average 2 BB to figure that out otherwise (bet all streets, 3b flop raise, 3b turn, etc.).

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

fold preflop. and by preflop i mean before you sit in this game.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

i would lead the flop, hoping that bb raises his mid pair so i can 3bet.

i also wouldnt sit in this game.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

game selection.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

raising q7o in on the button in a raked game is a leak. exploit him...

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

By Toronto casino, do you mean Blue Heron?

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
raising q7o in on the button in a raked game is a leak. exploit him...

[/ QUOTE ]

so debatable and wrong IMO

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

Thx for the good advice guys, and you're right I shouldnt be playing, but given that a game with that caliber of players at relaively low stakes comes around so seldom, I was willing to accept a slight -EV situation so that I could sit in a game where I could learn and improve my own game for the future.

And yeah, it was at Blue Heron for who asked... and the game is session fee, not rake.

Thx for the advice guys, I figured that given its 4 handed I couldnt realy let it go at any point, the thing with check-calling or even check-raising the turn like my friend and I were discussing is because the Button would be forced to bet pretty much any hand when checked to given the draw filled nature of the board, and an extra bet might be extracted.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thx for the good advice guys, and you're right I shouldnt be playing, but given that a game with that caliber of players at relaively low stakes comes around so seldom, I was willing to accept a slight -EV situation so that I could sit in a game where I could learn and improve my own game for the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

based on the description of the game and the way you played the hand, i would say it's a lot more than slight -EV and you'd be much better off spending that money on coaching or something if the goal is to improve your game.

[ QUOTE ]
Thx for the advice guys, I figured that given its 4 handed I couldnt realy let it go at any point

[/ QUOTE ]

of course you can't let it go, but it has nothing to do with the fact that the game is 4-handed. that's just a flawed way of thinking.


[ QUOTE ]
the thing with check-calling or even check-raising the turn like my friend and I were discussing is because the Button would be forced to bet pretty much any hand when checked to given the draw filled nature of the board, and an extra bet might be extracted.

[/ QUOTE ]

why can't the button be on a draw? giving free cards on this board is pretty disastrous.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

why would you ever check this flop? who is the LA player?

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

By "given that it 4 handed" I mean that the players are playing it accordingly and could be making the same play with a range of hands. (not that "the likelyhood of losing aces 4handed is too unlkely") Folding hands when the odds don't warrant a call has never been a problem for me in live play, short handed or not.

The game selection isn't really my primary concern here, more so I just want to optimize the way I played the hand.


PokerBob, I check-raised the flop to disguise my hand a bit and to figure out where the BB was at in the hand. Also if the button was on any pair I would quite possibly get in 4 bets on the flop as he was playing very aggresively.

His name is Jerry, really nice guy, talks a lot, big guy. Said he's played the 1/2 game at Commerce quite often in the past.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I check-raised the flop to disguise my hand a bit

[/ QUOTE ]

See your play did the exact opposite of this. After you 3 bet preflop you have whatever range. Most people would basically dark bet the flop so that bet doesn't narrow your range or give your hand away at all. By CRing you are suggesting you have a pair of some sort and are trying to push BB out of the pot. The only thing it disguises is that you would probably be seen as having a smaller pair than you do. But it hardly matters on a 775 board because you are often ahead with any pair and if behind, it doesn't matter how big your pair is if he has 3 sevens.

Jerry = a bald guy who usually wears headphones and does a lot of sports betting? I could be way off...

-DeathDonkey

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

PokerBob, I check-raised the flop to disguise my hand a bit and to figure out where the BB was at in the hand. Also if the button was on any pair I would quite possibly get in 4 bets on the flop as he was playing very aggressively.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this spot I don't think it is necessary for you to get cute. You 3bet preflop. They fully expect you to bet that flop, and if they are at all good they are gonna check behind with no-pair hands.

As far as finding out where BB is in the hand, I really don't think it matters. You have two aces. Just bet it.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
By "given that it 4 handed" I mean that the players are playing it accordingly and could be making the same play with a range of hands. (not that "the likelyhood of losing aces 4handed is too unlkely") Folding hands when the odds don't warrant a call has never been a problem for me in live play, short handed or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

how are they playing accordingly? how does their perception of your button opens change given that its 4 handed? are they playing tighter or looser or more aggressive or more passive than they would in a full game? do they assume that you're opening tighter or looser than you would in a full game? are they adjusting properly (by observing how you're adjusting) or do they go by the "conventional wisdom" (which is entirely wrong) that you should play looser in a 4-handed game than in a full game?

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

wow the game I missed out on, Lol!

Seb85, you need to read Ed Miller's book, twice. Your foundation is way off and you're doing random moves by my calculations.

Checking the flop is fishy as hell, so is checking the turn considering your flop decision

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

My first thought is find a softer game!!

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jerry = a bald guy who usually wears headphones and does a lot of sports betting? I could be way off...

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a useles fyi, but headphones aren't allowed in ontario casnios (lame). "Buying the button" isnt allowed, Alcohol/food is expensive and comps suck.

I miss commerce...

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

you guys really like to beat a dead horse. the poster said he realized that this was not a great spot and he wanted to play it anyways. his prerogative. you guys disagree and he agrees as well...

as to the hand, there is no way to get away or lose less. the flop check is bad though, def bet/3bet and wherever the flop action ends you need to then lead the turn. if you get raised at that point then it is time to call down. unless the bb comes alive at some point there is no fold to be found.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

3bet turn check call river if you think B raises wide range
7 is there on river i think check call is best
he isnt betting anything except a 7 or maybe 1010 or sumtin

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4handed
 

most has been covered but given what you stated:

- bet flop. if raised 3bet. flops like this are great because aggressive players will put in action w/ many pairs and flush draws. you are only scared of a 7 and the ranges you are likely against are wide enough that you want to get a lot of money in on the flop. if a K/Q/J hits on the turn, you'll likely lose some action you would have gotten on the flop from 88-TT. similarly, if a spade hits you may lose some action and is dangerous for you as you don't ahve a spade. further, AQ/AK in the button's hand may raise the flop since a) he may (possibly correctly) think he is ahead, b) may raise since you seem to suggest that you take his game seriously and might not 3bet a hand like 88/99 in that spot, and c) he may raise for a free card and his "6 outs" (esp. if he has a spade). that may not be likely though overall since he probably caps AK pf, but might not AQ. also, BB called 2 cold there so i'd put a pair in his range and you will very likely get him to raise out the button if you bet thus allowing you to 3bet him (though obv you want button in)

- bet turn. if raised, call down. no explanation needed here.

- bet river, if raised, call down. again no explanation needed.

Barron

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4handed
 

how often does that 30/60 run? What about 50/100?

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4handed
 

50/100 normally runs once a week at brantford casino.. Not sure about blue heron.

It's a pretty big event tho, the games are often action packed and run to the whee hours of the monring..

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4handed
 

[ QUOTE ]
raising q7o in on the button in a raked game is a leak. exploit him...

[/ QUOTE ]

if a level, lawl.
if not a level, double lawl.


c/ring the flop is hilarious and awful. playing the hand straigt forward is far more deceptive.

where was this 30/60? i would be interested in playing live, if it's closer to home. the rama 20/40 is way too long a trip for what it is.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

Rama 20/40 is dead...and I know I [censored] up the hand...thus why I posted it on here

Also I'm at commerce for the week if anyones here and wants to say hello

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4handed
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raising q7o in on the button in a raked game is a leak. exploit him...

[/ QUOTE ]

if a level, lawl.
if not a level, double lawl.


c/ring the flop is hilarious and awful. playing the hand straigt forward is far more deceptive.

where was this 30/60? i would be interested in playing live, if it's closer to home. the rama 20/40 is way too long a trip for what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

care to give any data supporting your lawling? I have a puny 203 hand sample that suggests that Q7o otb is breakeven.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

I agree that the CR on the flop completely exposes your strength here, but I'm not sure that leading out in this situation is a slam dunk either (although probably the right play). the CR does lessen drawing value for the passive player (unlikely he calls with overs or has a piece of the flop), whereas a lead out potentially caps the betting on the flop and leaves our hero in a bigger predicament out of turn on the turn. My thinking is this: if you're the villain here and it goes bet, call in front of you, you may as well jam the pot on the flop - but if hero comes out and announces he has a big pair or big draw with a CR (and villain has the luxury of position and can reasonably put BB on draw and hero on pair), you hero is firing on the turn, and you can trap 2 players for an extra BB here (so you benefit by slowing it down with almost certainly the nuts). My question is, how do you maximize this hand if you're the villain and do you think he played it perfectly?

Also, In the hero's defense, he was coolered here and the BB seems like the fish at the table in a short game (calling 4 small bets cold before the turn with hand that derives most of its value as a drawing hand given the action in front of him). Given your descriptions, EV should be slightly positive until BB's chips run out...after that, stand up.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raising q7o in on the button in a raked game is a leak. exploit him...

[/ QUOTE ]

if a level, lawl.
if not a level, double lawl.


c/ring the flop is hilarious and awful. playing the hand straigt forward is far more deceptive.

where was this 30/60? i would be interested in playing live, if it's closer to home. the rama 20/40 is way too long a trip for what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

care to give any data supporting your lawling? I have a puny 203 hand sample that suggests that Q7o otb is breakeven.

[/ QUOTE ]

if a play is a leak because of the rake, it's not exploitable.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
care to give any data supporting your lawling? I have a puny 203 hand sample that suggests that Q7o otb is breakeven.


[/ QUOTE ]

1) it's 30/60 - rake is a tiny consideration

2) the bb definitely sucks, the sb (op) is mediocre at best. because you dont average a win with it doesnt mean other people wont in specific situations.

3) what that guy above me said. something that is profitable without rake isnt exploitable with rake. if the two blinds were aware of the rake situation and acted accordingly, you should steal OTB with just about any two, and there's nothing you could do to exploit that. and it's for the same reason that the person to shove in an SNG has the edge. because neither person wants to get all in around a bubble, just like no one wants to be in a pot with an increased rake. but by being the first person to shove (or open raising otb) you are deferring that problem to them, and therefor benefitting yourself by picking up the blinds more often than you normally would in non-bubble or unraked circumstances.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
if the two blinds were aware of the rake situation and acted accordingly, you should steal OTB with just about any two, and there's nothing you could do to exploit that.

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact that nobody can exploit it does not mean it's profitable.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raising q7o in on the button in a raked game is a leak. exploit him...

[/ QUOTE ]

if a level, lawl.
if not a level, double lawl.


c/ring the flop is hilarious and awful. playing the hand straigt forward is far more deceptive.

where was this 30/60? i would be interested in playing live, if it's closer to home. the rama 20/40 is way too long a trip for what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

care to give any data supporting your lawling? I have a puny 203 hand sample that suggests that Q7o otb is breakeven.

[/ QUOTE ]

if a play is a leak because of the rake, it's not exploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. But the variance due to small sample dwarfs any effect of rake.

The WR for the sample was -0.03 bb/hand.
The stdev for the sample (assuming 3bb/hand) is ~0.2 bb/hand.
The effect of the rake on the sample is ~.07 bb/hand.

So I'm not trying to argue that opening Q7o otb is exploitable--just that the statement isn't worthy of "lawling" over unless someone has a positive result (adjusted for rake, thanks) to within 2 stdev or so. in which case I'd love to hear the results.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

your databases in all likelihood wont accurately reflect the situation. the blinds play [censored] and the rake is negligable.

empirical results are so completely pointless for context sensitive situations.

it's like saying "hmm, well, i broke even defending my bb against an ep raise with A10off over a sample of 200 hands in my regular online game, so i guess ill just dump my bb to the maniac in early position who has been raising every hand since he sat".


[ QUOTE ]
the fact that nobody can exploit it does not mean it's profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

doesnt necessarily mean that, but in this case, it is.

because their ideal response is to fold a lot more often than under normal circumstances, and what you lose in rake when they do defend, you gain from the additional hands they fold. successful steals arent raked.

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

[quoteIn this spot I don't think it is necessary for you to get cute. You 3bet preflop. They fully expect you to bet that flop, and if they are at all good they are gonna check behind with no-pair hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the button had something like AJ it might be a good bet, do you agree or disagree?

Re: 30/60 Limit Game in Toronto with experienced 50/100+ players 4hand
 

i dont think anyone will agree. the only likely way for him to put more money in the pot with AJ is if he pairs on the turn. The difference between betting and checking is that if you bet, he puts in one extra half bet to draw nearly dead (because he will peel the flop 100% of the time if it is 1 bet to him, and he's closing action).