10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

Villain is Ben Roberts, an FTP pro who actually seems pretty solid. He runs like a standard TAG, 22%/18%. He has 3-bet twice and open-limped UTG twice. My image is sLAG and on the tricky side. Comments on all streets are appreciated.


Full Tilt Poker, $10/$20 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $3,194
MP: $2,000
Hero (CO): $4,176.50
BTN: $2,271
SB: $3,933.75
BB: $3,580

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $70</font>, 2 folds, BB calls $50

Flop: ($150) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $140</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $570</font>, Hero calls $430

Turn: ($1,290) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [ Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $1,250</font>, BB calls $1,250

River: ($3,790) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [ A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ] (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

yeah I think I play it the same and I like your betsizing for this situation

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

whoops actually I like a smaller bet on the turn like 750

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

I like a turn check. Not a lot of hands he folds the turn with after CRing the flop, except total air, which I don't think he'll ever have here. Your turn bet prices out all second best flush draws, and you are essentially drawing to the nut flush, because any Kx of diamonds is improbable and not part of his range.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

with that draw i would often reraise on the flop again

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

pleeease 3 bet flop

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

First and foremost I'd three bet flop to 1400 [ and shove this turn].


In regard to this particular turn you can't make a mistake. A turn bet will get two pairs to fold- if that's the case you don't need the pot the turn.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

3 bet that flop dog, so many reasons to do it

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

I don't get it, shouldn't we 3-bet the flop like 100% of the time here!?

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

after not 3betting the flop i really dont like the turn bet

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

3-bet the flop and failing that check behind the turn.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

Oh, missed you were deep.

So his range C/Ring this flop could be: KQ, QJ, AJ, AT, A9, T9, 98dd, 87dd and like K9dd. Vs this range, if 3-bet here it should be profitable? Vs this range we are 56% and vs the hands he might shove, AT, A9, T9s, 98dd, 87dd and K9dd we are: 48%, so 3-betting is a nice?

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

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after not 3betting the flop i really dont like the turn bet

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yep. turn bet is terrible - we even picked up more theoretical outs and now we're potentially getting c/red off them

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

i would call flop altho i dont hate a 3bet.

i think a turn bet really blows. what are you accomplishing?

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

i 3bet flop, also if i bet turn anywhere near this big i really think you should bluff shove the river (i could see some of the smaller boats folding to be honest) unless you think that draws make up alot of his range and actually think you have SD equity

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

FLOP: I think calling the flop check raise is optimal.

In fact, when we get it all in on the flop, we will often be a slight dog. Instead if we call, we have the positional + information advantage on the turn, so please, lets use it to our advantage. OOP is of course a different matter, and it is often best just to stick it in with big draws.

TURN: I would definitely check. There are very little upsides to betting: He now gives up on his bluffs, folds worse draws, but calls or raises with better. Instead, checking may let a worse draw hit, or let you draw out a better hand.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

Call flop, why do you guys want to 3bet? Bad if he has a FD, and since we block so many of the draw cards I'd put him on a set or possibly 2 pair alot of the time. I don't even know if he calls A9 or AT PF. I just call the flop and maybe he will check/bet so we can check back/call, or something, I think our Q hi has some value. On the turn for sure check.

Only advantage I can see to 3beting the flop is if he gets here with and CRs bare aces on the flop, I know he's an FTP pro but he doesn't sound like that kind of player.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

i dont like 3betting flop, we dont want to get stuck here and we polarize him pretty hardcore if we do. this is mostly cause of how deep we are.

tbh, if you thik we lets go of the river relatively frequently, i dont mind the size of the turn bet, provided you shove any river. I think checking riv the way you played it is pretty rough, you're never ahead and he folds a fair amount if he's playing well.

i could be way off though.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

Flop 3bet is pretty good because we get it in vs 9x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or 78[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] pretty often and don't get moved off our hand by air and it's good for image and everything.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

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Flop 3bet is pretty good because we get it in vs 9x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or 78[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] pretty often and don't get moved off our hand by air and it's good for image and everything.

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waaaaay less often than we get it in versus 2-pair/set. I seriously think we are a dog to his All-In range.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

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waaaaay less often than we get it in versus 2-pair/set. I seriously think we are a dog to his All-In range.


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agree.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

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we dont want to get stuck here and we polarize him pretty hardcore if we do.

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I've seen a lot of use of this new 2+2 fav word "polarize" and its generally ok and understandable but wth does this sentence mean?

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

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i dont like 3betting flop, we dont want to get stuck here and we polarize him pretty hardcore if we do.

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why does everyone try so hard to use that stupid word polarize so much?

did aba say it in one of his videos or something?

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

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Flop 3bet is pretty good because we get it in vs 9x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or 78[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] pretty often and don't get moved off our hand by air and it's good for image and everything.

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waaaaay less often than we get it in versus 2-pair/set. I seriously think we are a dog to his All-In range.

[/ QUOTE ]I definately wouldn't go so far as to say getting it in is -ev, but I think calling is better.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

3betting flop is good because he might fold. and him folding when we have Q high is a very good outcome..

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

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Flop 3bet is pretty good because we get it in vs 9x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or 78[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] pretty often and don't get moved off our hand by air and it's good for image and everything.

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waaaaay less often than we get it in versus 2-pair/set. I seriously think we are a dog to his All-In range.

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we might be a slight dog, thats not the point. the point is that we have very, very good EV and there is a pretty big pot sitting in front of us. what happens if you call and the turn comes the 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and he pots it? call and fold river? i'm not saying 3betting is the only possible line, but with these stacks and this board its a pretty reasonable way to make sure you dont do anything thats really, really -EV later in the hand.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

I agree 3-betting is +EV.

However, I think playing it slower is more +EV due to positional/informational advantages. I.e. we can make much better decisions and get the money in (or not in) correctly with much better frequency on later streets.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

Meh looking at this again I wanted to call so we could make a sick calldown later with Q hi but he probaby has too much stupid [censored] in his range to just call flop.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

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3betting flop is good because he might fold. and him folding when we have Q high is a very good outcome..

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youre a better poster than this...

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

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3betting flop is good because he might fold. and him folding when we have Q high is a very good outcome..

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youre a better poster than this...

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hmm, is my logic flawed? it seems like 3betting flop is good because of FE, the fact that we widen the range with which we are aggressive in a particular line (which is never a bad thing), and that we sometimes get it in vs a worse draw and have lots of equity.

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

alright let me address some things
first, polarization. i wasnt aware this had become a big catchword, i havent even been reading the forum for like a few months cause of traveling. in this case, however, nobody plays anything but AK, 2pair, sets, and huge draws to a 3bet here, and so while its good if we get it in vs a draw or if we get AJ to fold, its way worse if we force ourselves to stack off 2 buyins to a set here imo. so in this respect, its pretty easy for him to play close to near perfectly, which is another way of saying he becomes polarized to only the best hands in his range. also, there arent that many combos of worse draws he can have. and when i say we dont want to get stuck, we dont want to be priced in to call a shove when, in actuality, were usually a dog.

secondly, people are worried about what will happen if we flatcall. if, for experimental purposes, we can narrow down his range to bluffs/average hands that will fold to a 3bet and hands that will get it in on the flop, lets see what he does
bluffs: often he will just c/f. other times he will pot into us when we have just turned the nuts, giving ourselves a chance to string him for the river too.
monsters: he wouldnt have folded anyway on the flop so its already better to call. many of our outs he still stacks off to. plus when he pots turn, it is usually easier to read his hand (ie he bets the turn always with a monster and only sometimes with a bluff)
only when we blank and he pots do we have a weird spot, and even then he still probably gives us odds to call.

3betting certainly isnt bad, but i dont think its best.

correct me where im wrong though

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

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i dont like 3betting flop, we dont want to get stuck here and we polarize him pretty hardcore if we do.

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why does everyone try so hard to use that stupid word polarize so much?

did aba say it in one of his videos or something?

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I coined it. Look it up. True story.

edit: btw, where i coined it was in a pretty interesting thread with some really awesome posters: vanveen, cwl, flawless, brandon adams, etc.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&amp;vc=1

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

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AQ it’s a hand that will frequently punish you for building a large pot out of position.

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nitaments

Re: 10/20 - Huge draw deep vs. FTP pro
 

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AQ it’s a hand that will frequently punish you for building a large pot out of position.

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nitaments

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Yes, Brandon is a notorious nit.