Post-Flop Skills: Method for Improvement
 

Hi Guys,

I would say a common theme among SNGer's who do not play much no-limit cash or MTTs is a dislike of post-flop play. You want to fold or take it down pre-flop, particularly during low-blind play. Many players only feel comfortable during high blind play, and will either reject +EV situations early, or simply push/overbet premium hands during low blinds.

Now don't get me wrong: you can certainly be a winning SNG player playing only premium hands early, and sticking to a push-fold strategy late. But if you want to improve your post-flop play so that you have more +EV opportunities earlier (such as making frequent small button raises during levels I and II when the blinds are tight), then:

Play some heads-up SNGs.

The beauty of the HU SNG is that you cannot simply wait for the blinds to rise or to be dealt a premium hand early. (If you do, you will get run over since you're posting a blind every hand.) So you will end up playing many hands with flop, turn, and river decisions during low-blind play -- a very useful skill, particularly if you want to branch out into other forms of no-limit.

A few words of advice when starting to play these.

1. Begin by playing one table only, and drop your buyin to 25%-50% of your standard full-table SNG buyin.

During low blinds:

2. When it is your button, raise widely (say 2-3 BB) to create a bigger pot with your positional advantage, and if your opponent calls and then checks the flop, make a continuation bet (around 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot) around 70-90% of the time.

3. When you are big blind, look to see cheap flops by checking when the button smooth-calls and calling only small raises. Rarely reraise or call larger raises unless your opponent is very aggressive or you have a premium hand.

During high blinds:

Well, you guys know what to do during high blinds....

Best Regards,
Collin

Re: Post-Flop Skills: Method for Improvement
 

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(such as making frequent small button raises during levels I and II when the blinds are tight)

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good advice about hu sngs, but this is ridiculous

Re: Post-Flop Skills: Method for Improvement
 

I think your advice is helpful if you get heads-up in a SNG and the blinds are still pretty low, say bb=150 or bb=200. I have been strugling in this area and a well respected player recently gave me the same advice - i.e. raise the button widely and c-bet most folps when checked. It has helped me quite a bit.

Say stacks are about even at 6700 and bb=200. After you raise the button a couple of times your opponent can lose patience and the next thing you know they repush you with A4o/K6s/33 types of hands. You obviously have to fold your weak holdings but it is very nice when you pick up a premium hand.

I don't exactly know how playing HU is going to help with postflop play. I'm interested to hear what others say...

Re: Post-Flop Skills: Method for Improvement
 

I'm not sure HU practice helps much with post-flop skills at a full(er) table - hand selection is quite different (it's rare that any of your opponents are playing ~100% of their hands at a full table), you will make correct bets/calls/raises that would be very very wrong at a full table and you will be correct to bluff/semi-bluff a lot more HU, both in and out of position, than would be sane at a full table.

HU SnGs are great for improving ITM placings - especially if you play a structure which is often quite deep by the time you get HU - but for post-flop at a full table I don't think you can beat cash games (or the cash forums here).

As for the HU strategy outlined here - it looks pretty standard but it's not the only approach. In particular, if you are better than your opponent post-flop you are probably better off limping in to leave room for some poker post-flop. Most important of all is flexibility - your strategy will depend a lot on how your opponent is playing and how he can best be exploited.

Re: Post-Flop Skills: Method for Improvement
 

Collin how many 1 table sngs have you played and at what buy ins?

You seem to be putting a lot of effort into advancing a sng conversation, but Oubliette is right about the small button raises early in a sng being ridiculous advice for almost any STT online today. The main problem is that gaining small amounts of chips early is not that helpful to your total $EV, where losing those same amount of chips is usually very detrimental.

Your HU advice seems very solid, but there are not that many similar situations (except for HU push fold endgame) between a HU sng and a STT.

Re: Post-Flop Skills: Method for Improvement
 

I think hu sngs ARE actually a really good way to increase your postflop skills, since a lot of your postflop situations are going to be sb/bb and button/sb/bb confrontations with crappy hands.

I also think that 6 max nlhe and some full ring are both a great break from sngs and a good way to understand postflop play better.

Re: Post-Flop Skills: Method for Improvement
 

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2. When it is your button, raise widely (say 2-3 BB) to create a bigger pot with your positional advantage, and if your opponent calls and then checks the flop, make a continuation bet (around 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot) around 70-90% of the time.


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Collin, you either need to explain this in detail or stop giving advice, because a generality like this in poker is useless and often counterproductive. If your book is anything like this thread, it's going suck ass. Sorry for the brutal honesty but I hope you see where I'm coming from.

Re: Post-Flop Skills: Method for Improvement
 

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I think hu sngs ARE actually a really good way to increase your postflop skills, since a lot of your postflop situations are going to be sb/bb and button/sb/bb confrontations with crappy hands.

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Fair point, but I don't tend to open limp or raise junk in my SB (unless it's a push) and I tend to discourage people limping their SB into my BB. Button limps are fairly rare.

And there is still a very different hand selection thing going on - HU you will be playing virtually every hand, but earlier on button limpers and SB completers are not doing this with ATC. And, earlier in an SnG you should be playing a lot more cautiously than when HU.

Re: Post-Flop Skills: Method for Improvement
 

It sounds like this book is written for a player who doesn't yet realize that it's generally better to raise preflop than to limp. In that case I'm sure it will help their game.

Re: Post-Flop Skills: Method for Improvement
 

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I would say a common theme among SNGer's who do not play much no-limit cash or MTTs is a dislike of post-flop play. You want to fold or take it down pre-flop, particularly during low-blind play. Many players only feel comfortable during high blind play, and will either reject +EV situations early, or simply push/overbet premium hands during low blinds.

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There is a very good reason for this in SnGs. The whole point of an SnG is to put yourself in a situation to make the money as high a % as possible. A SnG pays 33% of the field (in comparison, most MTTs pay 7-12%), thus it is pretty reasonable to expect to be able to fold your way into the money a lot of the time. Here's the problem. Say in level 1 (15/30) on Full Tilt you raise to 100 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and get called by the cutoff and the big blind. The flop comes 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], so we have two overs and a backdoor flush draw. We continuation for 240 into 315, the cutoff calls and the big blind folds. Turn J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. What are we going to do now? Fire again? Check and fold to a bet? That's 20% of our stack gone, right there. Then an orbit and a half later we call a raise to 120 at 20/40 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the button. The flop comes A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and obviously we fold to the raiser's bet. We took a blind in this period so our stack is down to 1500 - 100 - 240 - 20 - 40 - 120 = 980 in level 2, and what did we do to get there? Miss two flops?

The bottom line is that there is no room in SnGs to try to "outplay postflop" early and try to build a stack. What if the flop had come A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The original raiser bets and we do what. Raise? He moves in and now we're flipping with AK-AJ. Call? The turn blanks off and he bets again, now we're down to something in the 700s, already half our stack gone in two pots. Raise his turn bet with no fold equity? ... By the time the blinds get up to 50/100 unless we get lucky and double up (which often times we won't be much bigger than a coinflip) we aren't going to have much fold equity anymore. Sure, sometimes we end up winning a big pot, but other times we end up busting ourselves early on. I would rather take two 1400 chip stacks into 5 handed and 60/120 blinds than bust in 8th place in one and have 3500 in the other.

ICM demonstrates that in a tournament (that isn't winner take all) each chip won is worth less than each chip lost. If you have a 10% expected ROI when a tournament begins and you double up, you're expected ROI doesn't go to 20%, it goes to 18%.

If you want to outplay people postflop, I recommend playing cash games where you can top off if you lose a pot, or MTTs where the payout structure is much steeper and thus accumulating chips has more value.

-durron597