Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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It's quite ridiculous to see atheists telling theists what theists believe. God forbid that people, yes theists too, actually think and think differently about things.

Just a question. How many of you (meaning luckyme, vhawk, midge, chrisv, whoever) have read any of the following:

1. Dynamics of Faith by Paul Tillich
2. On Religion: Speeches to its Cultured Despisers by Friedrich Schleiermacher
3. The Divine Milieu by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
4. The Kingdom of God is Within You by Leo Tolstoy
5. Philosophical Fragments by Soren Kierkegaard

I will list more if desired.

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I don't think I've made any grand point about what theists believe. I've tried to explain what theism IS, and I think I'm just as qualified to talk about that as a theist. It is impossible to come up with some set of things that all theists believe, save for one: theism. After that, their beliefs are unique and not really related to the theism at all. I will make some claims about what INDIVIDUAL theists believe, people who call themselves Christians, for example, but I'm often surprised to find out the things that people believe while still calling themselves Christian. At least for Christianity, there is a theoretically "correct" set of beliefs that being a Christian implies. Of course its vanishingly unlikely that any actual Christian has all of those beliefs.

In short, I'm more than happy to meet the theist on his terms wrt his beliefs. I don't really care WHAT they are, he can present them to me and I'll argue them on their own merits.

Can you give an example of who these atheists are that you are angry with, and an example of when they told theists what they believe?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Schmitty -

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5. Philosophical Fragments by Soren Kierkegaard

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Ship it! I'm an atheist, but I agree that the modern predominance of atheism in the intellectual community can make atheists unjustifiably dismissive of theists.

Anyone who starts to imagine that theism is "simplistic" or "unsophisticated" should just read Dostoevsky for a couple years straight. Thanks for the other book recommendations, I will look into them.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

I sometimes make generalizations about "the theists," when I'm referring primarily to fundamentalists. It's sloppy, fair enough. I think I've done better since returning to the forum, but I'll still slip up sometimes.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's quite ridiculous to see atheists telling theists what theists believe. God forbid that people, yes theists too, actually think and think differently about things.

Just a question. How many of you (meaning luckyme, vhawk, midge, chrisv, whoever) have read any of the following:

1. Dynamics of Faith by Paul Tillich
2. On Religion: Speeches to its Cultured Despisers by Friedrich Schleiermacher
3. The Divine Milieu by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
4. The Kingdom of God is Within You by Leo Tolstoy
5. Philosophical Fragments by Soren Kierkegaard

I will list more if desired.

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Even more ridiculous, for obvious reasons, are theists telling other theists what theists believe. no?

For me, a theist is somebody who believes there is an intervening god(s), details to follow. On this forum, the range is some version of god being a ham sandwich or love, or very selective or vengeful or whatever serves the posters psyche. In many cases the details are rather irrelevant, in the same sense that the details of the space ship that they adducted me in would be.

What were you hoping would come out of reading your book list? That theists can't agree about the nature of god? heck, we can learn that walking around the neighborhood.

luckyme

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

It's quite ridiculous to see atheists telling theists what theists believe. God forbid that people, yes theists too, actually think and think differently about things.

Exactly. I just posted the mathematical perspectives of 2 Trinitarian math people, but probably no one read them here since I haven't heard any forum comments on them.

http://www.math.sfu.ca/~jrg/scripts/godandmath_1.pdf

http://www.frame-poythress.org/poyth...4Creation.html

The second article is by Vern Poythress. He earned a B.S. in mathematics from California Institute of Technology (1966), where he was a Putnam fellow in 1964, and a Ph.D. in mathematics from Harvard University (1970). He studied linguistics and Bible translation at the Summer Institute of Linguistics at the University of Oklahoma in 1971 and 1972, and he enrolled at Westminster Theological Seminary, earning an M.Div. (1974) and a Th.M. in apologetics (1974). He then received an M.Litt. in New Testament from University of Cambridge (1977) and a Th.D. in New Testament from the University of Stellenbosch, Stellenbosch, South Africa (1981).

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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It's quite ridiculous to see atheists telling theists what theists believe. God forbid that people, yes theists too, actually think and think differently about things.

Exactly. I just posted the mathematical perspectives of 2 Trinitarian math people, but probably no one read them here since I haven't heard any forum comments on them.

http://www.math.sfu.ca/~jrg/scripts/godandmath_1.pdf

http://www.frame-poythress.org/poyth...4Creation.html

The second article is by Vern Poythress. He earned a B.S. in mathematics from California Institute of Technology (1966), where he was a Putnam fellow in 1964, and a Ph.D. in mathematics from Harvard University (1970). He studied linguistics and Bible translation at the Summer Institute of Linguistics at the University of Oklahoma in 1971 and 1972, and he enrolled at Westminster Theological Seminary, earning an M.Div. (1974) and a Th.M. in apologetics (1974). He then received an M.Litt. in New Testament from University of Cambridge (1977) and a Th.D. in New Testament from the University of Stellenbosch, Stellenbosch, South Africa (1981).

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Maybe no one responded because we assumed it was a joke?

"Yes, non-Christians can do mathematics, but only because God enables them to do so. Only because the Christian God exists and sustains them and teaches them are they able to do mathematics, and to act as if God didn't exist."

Honestly, with statements like the above (of course justified through the Bible), noone can really take this seriously.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Weak argument Kurto. There were philosophical arguments as well as a lot of math in those articles. People in this forum keep taking paragraphs out of context and using it to bash. I wonder what the name is for that type of lame attack.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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Weak argument Kurto. There were philosophical arguments as well as a lot of math in those articles. People in this forum keep taking paragraphs out of context and using it to bash. I wonder what the name is for that type of lame attack.

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Seriously... I'm not attempting to make an argument. I don't think its compelling to anyone except for the kind of people who just decide to believe something on Faith. Its not particularly interesting to discuss something that doesn't even begin to make a convincing or compelling statement.

I do see myself sending some choice quotes to people because (the second one in particular) is really funny. For that I thank you.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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Weak argument Kurto. There were philosophical arguments as well as a lot of math in those articles. People in this forum keep taking paragraphs out of context and using it to bash. I wonder what the name is for that type of lame attack.

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I should be more clear - For the second one, the gist of the paper is the Bible says God created everything. Proof- see Bible. Then relates math/science/knowledge, etc. to how the Bible says its true.

Imagine how naive one would have to be to think this is meaningful?

Let's make it easy:
Cliff note: God created everything.
Proof - Bible says so

Since you see no flaw in this you will never get anywhere since there's a major hole in the logic here. Can you spot it?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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Exactly. I just posted the mathematical perspectives of 2 Trinitarian math people, but probably no one read them here since I haven't heard any forum comments on them.


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I read them (quickly, but fairly completely). As I've said before, I dont see the point in commenting on a link when you've presented no argument or opinion though. You recall we had a similar discussion before - when I questioned the link you had posted, you responded "Why not write to them and ask your questions?"

I'm here to discuss people's opinions with the people who hold them. I can look up different perspectives on my own.