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Case in Point...
If the punishment hasn't been carried out yet, it will be soon. A 19 year old woman will be lashed 200 times and spend 6 months in jail. That is, if her brother doesn't kill her first. Her crime? She was gang raped by seven men. Apparently she was in the company of a man at the time who was not her husband. She has dishonored her family and her religion (which is why her brother wants to kill her).
I'm not even sure what I'm more outraged about. That such an insanely barbaric caveman mentality can still exist in this day and age, or that the rational thinking world is not taking a stronger stance and coming to the rescue of this young girl who has become a double victim. A victim of a heinous rape crime, and then a victim of her own religion and government. If this is not reason enough to mock, ridicule, and lambast foolish religious beliefs, I don't know what is. Some of you who were calling for ridicule only in outrageous circumstances might want to consider this incident. It stems from something far less sinister. The basic religious tenet of how women should act and be treated according to Islamic law. It is not that great a leap from the seemingly harmless beliefs to the situation that devoloped here. In all of Islam, women are regarded in this way to some degree. Therefore, the severity of the dellusion is unimportant. The degree to which it is practiced is unimportant. What's important is that the dellusion exists at all. What I find deplorable is that we feel a need to avoid offending the sensibilities of those who hold such beliefs no matter how apparently harmless. The entire rational thinking world should be ridiculing Islam with everything they've got right now over this incident!! |
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Not as horrific but still stupid.
[ QUOTE ] KHARTOUM - Hundreds of Sudanese Muslims, waving green Islamic flags, took to the streets of Khartoum on Friday demanding death for the British teacher convicted of insulting Islam after her class named a teddy bear Mohammad. "No one lives who insults the Prophet," the protesters chanted, a day after school teacher Gillian Gibbons, 54, was sentenced to 15 days in jail and deportation from Sudan. [/ QUOTE ] |
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honestly I don't care.
I mean here in US thousands of people are raped every day in prison and nobody cares. hell, most people think it's great. |
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[ QUOTE ]
honestly I don't care. I mean here in US thousands of people are raped every day in prison and nobody cares. hell, most people think it's great. [/ QUOTE ] Serious? |
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I don't see treating women badly as a religous issue but totally agree with the sentiment of your post. They're extremely uncivilised but its very tough to impose civilisation on other countries.
Hadn't heard this story but there's been plenty of mockery of the TeddyBearists offended by the naming of their sacred bear. its of limited value, useful mockery comes from within cultures not from external sources chez |
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[ QUOTE ]
Quote: honestly I don't care. I mean here in US thousands of people are raped every day in prison and nobody cares. hell, most people think it's great. Serious? [/ QUOTE ] yep. most people think they're criminals and deserve it. my point is we americans/westerners should clean our own house before looking to impose our supposed civilized values on others. |
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One problem is that a lot of oil is in majority muslim countries, hence a blind eye is turned to such attrocities.
Another problem (and religious extremists and political correctophiles are two peas in a pod with this) is the view that anything is justified if it is done in the name of religion. |
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maybe of interest is the end of a letter in the Times from Dr Yaqub Zaki, Deputy director, The Mulim Institute, London.
'Regimes like the Sudanese and the Taleban have made a laughing stock of Islam as well as themselves, so the middle east is no longer Arabistan but Absurdistan' chez |
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But this (I thought) is Saudi Arabia. For some reason I thought they were more reformed than most. Maybe that's just because of their relation with the US.
I love the quote! I wish more moderate Muslims would speak out about matter like this. I'd feel a little easier if they did. |
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Quote: honestly I don't care. I mean here in US thousands of people are raped every day in prison and nobody cares. hell, most people think it's great. Serious? [/ QUOTE ] yep. most people think they're criminals and deserve it. my point is we americans/westerners should clean our own house before looking to impose our supposed civilized values on others. [/ QUOTE ] No one is saying prisoners deserved to be raped. But if it's possible to be less deserving of such a fate then this girl is. Also... The rape that occurs in our prisons is done at the hands of a few rogue degenerates and not condoned by our government or it's citizens. A HUGE difference. So your anaolgy is terrible! |
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But this (I thought) is Saudi Arabia. For some reason I thought they were more reformed than most. Maybe that's just because of their relation with the US. I love the quote! I wish more moderate Muslims would speak out about matter like this. I'd feel a little easier if they did. [/ QUOTE ] I hear Saudi Arabia is pretty bad. Moderate muslims in the UK speak out a lot. I think the west is making a terrible mistake when it allows (even encourages) the belief that the extremist nutters and Islam are synomamous. chez |
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[ QUOTE ]
I think the west is making a terrible mistake when it allows (even encourages) the belief that the extremist nutters and Islam are synomamous. [/ QUOTE ] QFT. Let's not act like these actions are representative of the majority of Islam. I'm also fairly sure that mocking Saudi Arabians isn't going to change their mind on this issue. All that would seem to do is create outrage and anger toward us. However, I guess it's also possible that nothing will change minds. |
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I think the west is making a terrible mistake when it allows (even encourages) the belief that the extremist nutters and Islam are synomamous. [/ QUOTE ] QFT. Let's not act like these actions are representative of the majority of Islam. I'm also fairly sure that mocking Saudi Arabians isn't going to change their mind on this issue. All that would seem to do is create outrage and anger toward us. However, I guess it's also possible that nothing will change minds. [/ QUOTE ] And if THATS true then mocking them and getting them to show their true colors seems like a reasonable way to garner support from places it might actually exist. I have never wanted to name a bunch of sex toys Mohammed more in my entire life. |
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The rape that occurs in our prisons is done at the hands of a few rogue degenerates and not condoned by our government or it's citizens. A HUGE difference. So your anaolgy is terrible! [/ QUOTE ] simply not true. the prison staff and warden and the mental health guys all know it goes on and they look the other way and let it go on and in extreme cases they actively enable it. |
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And if THATS true then mocking them and getting them to show their true colors seems like a reasonable way to garner support from places it might actually exist. I have never wanted to name a bunch of sex toys Mohammed more in my entire life. [/ QUOTE ] But if you mock and ridicule them and simply refer to them as "Muslims" you are alienating everyone who doesn't believe those things but considers themselves Muslim. It seems like you are assuming that you can't change minds. Actually, even if minds won't be changed and these people are going to continue to be ridiculous, mocking them could easily make our relations with them worse than it already is. I just don't see the positives and I see big negatives. |
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] And if THATS true then mocking them and getting them to show their true colors seems like a reasonable way to garner support from places it might actually exist. I have never wanted to name a bunch of sex toys Mohammed more in my entire life. [/ QUOTE ] But if you mock and ridicule them and simply refer to them as "Muslims" you are alienating everyone who doesn't believe those things but considers themselves Muslim. It seems like you are assuming that you can't change minds. Actually, even if minds won't be changed and these people are going to continue to be ridiculous, mocking them could easily make our relations with them worse than it already is. I just don't see the positives and I see big negatives. [/ QUOTE ] You hit on a great point, actually, and its something I'm intellectually aware of but constantly forget because I give everyone too much credit. Let me try and give an example. If I made a statement like "God I hate all these stupid SMP posters who think they know everything and dont even listen to what I have to say" would you take offense? Why? I'm clearly not talking about you, I'm only talking about "that kind" of SMP poster. But most people WOULD take offense because...well I dont know why. When I rant on and on about the Christians that bother me, if you arent that kind of Christian why must you take offense? You arent all on the same team. You are all individuals. When people make fun of Minnesotans, I certainly dont take offense, unless they are talking about something that relates to me. So, when we mock the actions and beliefs of CERTAIN Muslims, there is no reason whatsoever for the rest of the Muslims, the "good" Muslims that you are talking about here, to get offended at all. In fact the opposite should be true, they should be even more embarrassed by the "bad" Muslims and join in. But that isnt what happens and I should know better. |
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One of us doesn't get it. Maybe it's me.
The degree of nuttiness is irrevelant. It's the core axioms that are off. It's from these beginning axioms that major nuttiness occurs. And we're doing this story injustice by using terms like nutty. It's much graver than that. It's nothing short of abominable how they treat women. And don't tell me it's a govermental problem. Its seeds are rooted in religion. |
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[ QUOTE ]
You hit on a great point, actually, and its something I'm intellectually aware of but constantly forget because I give everyone too much credit. Let me try and give an example. If I made a statement like "God I hate all these stupid SMP posters who think they know everything and dont even listen to what I have to say" would you take offense? Why? I'm clearly not talking about you, I'm only talking about "that kind" of SMP poster. But most people WOULD take offense because...well I dont know why. When I rant on and on about the Christians that bother me, if you arent that kind of Christian why must you take offense? You arent all on the same team. You are all individuals. When people make fun of Minnesotans, I certainly dont take offense, unless they are talking about something that relates to me. So, when we mock the actions and beliefs of CERTAIN Muslims, there is no reason whatsoever for the rest of the Muslims, the "good" Muslims that you are talking about here, to get offended at all. In fact the opposite should be true, they should be even more embarrassed by the "bad" Muslims and join in. But that isnt what happens and I should know better. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, that's basically what I'm getting at. Because of your position as an outsider and because of a lot of past history, bad relations, mistrust, etc, even if you specify that you are talking about "bad Muslims" many people on both sides will simply hear "Muslims". I mean, honestly how many people in the U.S. know the difference between the different Middle Eastern nations and the different forms of Islam? It's such a sensitive topic I just think it's worth it to be a little more careful. |
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<font color="blue">But if you mock and ridicule them and simply refer to them as "Muslims" you are alienating everyone who doesn't believe those things but considers themselves Muslim. </font>
But they DO believe those things! Even if they wouldn't be willing to flog and sentence a woman after being gang raped, they believe in oppressing women. Why is the degree of that oppression so important to you, instead of the oppression itself? |
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[ QUOTE ]
One of us doesn't get it. Maybe it's me. The degree of nuttiness is irrevelant. It's the core axioms that are off. It's from these beginning axioms that major nuttiness occurs. And we're doing this story injustice by using terms like nutty. It's much graver than that. It's nothing short of abominable how they treat women. And don't tell me it's a govermental problem. Its seeds are rooted in religion. [/ QUOTE ] I guess I would say that I just think you are mistaken. I'm not going to claim that Islam is a great thing and that there aren't any objectionable tenets or practices. However, there are millions upon millions of Muslims who think these practices are abhorrent. Actually, I will take it one step further just for arguments sake. Even if what you say is true and these practices are rooted in some interpretation of the religion. If a majority of the practitioners of this religion don't advocate these things, I would argue that it is a mistake to say that it is the core religion that is at fault. Pragmatically speaking, as I said earlier, decrying the entire religion simply alienates all those who would otherwise agree with your overall point. There is a large disagreement about the interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. For example, some people think the 2nd amendment gives everyone the right to own a gun, some people think it applies only to militia. But I would never say that America is to blame or that being American is ridiculous because you open yourself up to these problems. |
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<font color="blue">I mean, honestly how many people in the U.S. know the difference between the different Middle Eastern nations and the different forms of Islam? It's such a sensitive topic I just think it's worth it to be a little more careful. </font>
If this is true, then why aren't they some of the more vocal opponents of Islamic fanaticism? If certain members of my family were also KKK members, and my family started getting a reputation for affiliation with the KKK, I'd be among the first to be ostracizing these rogue family members from the top of my lungs. Chez says this is happening in the UK. We certainly don't see or hear of it happening here. Am I to believe this the result of a biased Western media? |
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<font color="blue"> However, there are millions upon millions of Muslims who think these practices are abhorrent. </font>
Let's stop there. I'm seriously trying to have a fruitful discussion. Millions upon millions of Muslims find WHAT practices abhorant? The flogging of a 19 year old girl who's been raped? Fine. But that's NOT the only point here. It's WHY she's being flogged in the first place!!!!!!! They are still perfectly in sync with their brethren about the crime she supposedly committed. So the way I take what you're saying is, you are ok about the oppression of women, just not the punishment. I can't believe that's your position, so please clarify what you're saying for me. |
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<font color="blue">the prison staff and warden and the mental health guys all know it goes on and they look the other way and let it go on and in extreme cases they actively enable it. </font>
I knew you'd say this and I was waiting for it. Prison guards and wardens STILL only makeup a handful of people! What we're talking about here is an entire country! |
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There are a few issues here.
1) The religious law itself – she was in an unrelated man’s car. 2) The punishment for said crime – lashing. 3) Whether or not anyone should care. 1) I don’t have an opinion on this. If one wants to believe in this (if that is what a correct interpretation of Islam says) then, oh well. 2) I am against capital and corporal punishment. 3) Here is a good example of my response to Sklansky’s thread regarding CNN news and CNN giving so much time to stories like OJ. In that thread I suggested that it really doesn’t matter much what is on the news unless the viewer is going to be affected by it personally or if the viewer is going to act in some manner upon what is learned. I think most of us find this story disturbing. And most of us will do nothing. I agree with the sentiments that the most effective avenue for change should probably come from within the Islam hierarchy itself; especially given the quote from Dr Zaki which seems to suggest that this probably is a bad interpretation of Islam. |
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i agree that the powers that be should be attempting to aid this woman and to punish those who commit crime against her.
punish them not for their beliefs, but for their actions. you can believe whatever you want - but you can't force someone else to follow your beliefs. |
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[ QUOTE ]
i agree that the powers that be should be attempting to aid this woman and to punish those who commit crime against her. punish them not for their beliefs, but for their actions. you can believe whatever you want - but you can't force someone else to follow your beliefs. [/ QUOTE ] the powers that be as in the saudi government? aren't they just enforcing their theocratic law? |
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<font color="blue"> 1) I don’t have an opinion on this. If one wants to believe in this (if that is what a correct interpretation of Islam says) then, oh well. </font>
I can't believe what I've been reading here from several posters, not just this, so no offense. I feel like I'm in a twilight zone. With all due respect... What do you MEAN you don't have an opinion on this?!! You don't have an opinion on whether or not women should be oppressed by men?!?!?!?! Do you honestly think that it's ok for men to OWN the women in their families?!?!?!?!! That a woman is the property of her family or husband? |
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i was purposely ambiguous with "powers that be"- i did not mean to limit it to those in saudi arabia, but i did not mean for it to exclude saudi arabians either.
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[ QUOTE ]
One of us doesn't get it. Maybe it's me. The degree of nuttiness is irrevelant. It's the core axioms that are off. It's from these beginning axioms that major nuttiness occurs. And we're doing this story injustice by using terms like nutty. It's much graver than that. It's nothing short of abominable how they treat women. And don't tell me it's a govermental problem. Its seeds are rooted in religion. [/ QUOTE ] the messed-up beliefs, in general, are not the problem. the problem is the one particular belief that "I am right, and therefore everyone else must be wrong, and therefore i have the right to impose my beliefs on everyone else, and this is a fact that cannot be debated." this is one "belief" that CAN be easily proven to be dead wrong through the use of simple logic - yet it has existed forever. it's perhaps the single most devestating belief in the history of mankind. |
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[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> 1) I don’t have an opinion on this. If one wants to believe in this (if that is what a correct interpretation of Islam says) then, oh well. </font> I can't believe what I've been reading here from several posters, not just this, so no offense. I feel like I'm in a twilight zone. With all due respect... What do you MEAN you don't have an opinion on this?!! You don't have an opinion on whether or not women should be oppressed by men?!?!?!?! Do you honestly think that it's ok for men to OWN the women in their families?!?!?!?!! That a woman is the property of her family or husband? [/ QUOTE ] Well, I have an opinion sure. I mean, I am nor going to express that opinion here because it is moot. We posters aren’t going to do anything about this. At least I am not. So, I am not going to give my opinion because I am too lazy to do anything about it – e.g. write a letter to some Muslim cleric asking for clarification if this is what Islam says or is it a governmental thing. Or organize some protest in front of the Saudi Embassy in D. C. Also, to have an opinion on how another Religion should interpret its text is beyond my knowledge. So, really I’d rather not give an opinion on Islam tradition/laws. I see a fine line too even for our government. Ok for George to try to free this woman, but not to free all the people in Iraq? (Btw, I was against the war from the git go – so don’t get me wrong.) |
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Has anyone here actually read the Koran? I hereby offer the "Koran challenge": try to open it five times in a row, each time to a random page, without finding a passage that encourages murdering infidels, or opressing women, etc.
I think you will be astonished at the results. The most relevant point towards the OP's argument, I think, is that the foundational text upon which the religion of Islam is based is completely and thoroughly flawed. It is a text that is ideal for gathering a mob to wage war against their neighbor, and nothing more. If one is aiming to attack modern religions for their irrationality, then one needs to appeal to their foundational texts. No more and no less will point out their absurdity. |
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If she had followed the law she would not have been raped, except by her owner.
To quote a muslim cleric "“If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it…whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat,” the sheik told the congregation. “The uncovered meat is the problem. “If she was in her room, in her home, no problem would have occurred.” |
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If she had followed the law she would not have been raped, [/ QUOTE ] Does that make the rape and punishment justified? |
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<font color="blue">We posters aren’t going to do anything about this. </font>
I feel I'm doing something (albeit all to little), by merely trying to bring attention to this atrocity and be outspoken about it. I am also a contributor to the support of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has a fatwa out on her for the outrageous crime of trying to gain her individual freedom from Islam. I urge others to do the same. |
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If she had followed the law she would not have been raped, [/ QUOTE ] Does that make the rape and punishment justified? [/ QUOTE ] According to a muslim cleric, yes, she is to blame. We must be respectful of religious beliefs. |
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[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">We posters aren’t going to do anything about this. </font> I feel I'm doing something (albeit all to little), by merely trying to bring attention to this atrocity and be outspoken about it. I am also a contributor to the support of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has a fatwa out on her for the outrageous crime of trying to gain her individual freedom from Islam. I urge others to do the same. [/ QUOTE ] Cool, Stat. Dang, I already wrote in Borodog's thread I want to be chez when I grow up. You are giving him a run for the money in my book with this. Good job. |
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[ QUOTE ]
There are a few issues here. 1) The religious law itself – she was in an unrelated man’s car. 2) The punishment for said crime – lashing. 3) Whether or not anyone should care. 1) I don’t have an opinion on this. If one wants to believe in this (if that is what a correct interpretation of Islam says) then, oh well. 2) I am against capital and corporal punishment. 3) Here is a good example of my response to Sklansky’s thread regarding CNN news and CNN giving so much time to stories like OJ. In that thread I suggested that it really doesn’t matter much what is on the news unless the viewer is going to be affected by it personally or if the viewer is going to act in some manner upon what is learned. I think most of us find this story disturbing. And most of us will do nothing. I agree with the sentiments that the most effective avenue for change should probably come from within the Islam hierarchy itself; especially given the quote from Dr Zaki which seems to suggest that this probably is a bad interpretation of Islam. [/ QUOTE ] Just to be clear. The quote is in response to the teddy bear news not the raped women. chez |
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] There are a few issues here. 1) The religious law itself – she was in an unrelated man’s car. 2) The punishment for said crime – lashing. 3) Whether or not anyone should care. 1) I don’t have an opinion on this. If one wants to believe in this (if that is what a correct interpretation of Islam says) then, oh well. 2) I am against capital and corporal punishment. 3) Here is a good example of my response to Sklansky’s thread regarding CNN news and CNN giving so much time to stories like OJ. In that thread I suggested that it really doesn’t matter much what is on the news unless the viewer is going to be affected by it personally or if the viewer is going to act in some manner upon what is learned. I think most of us find this story disturbing. And most of us will do nothing. I agree with the sentiments that the most effective avenue for change should probably come from within the Islam hierarchy itself; especially given the quote from Dr Zaki which seems to suggest that this probably is a bad interpretation of Islam. [/ QUOTE ] Just to be clear. The quote is in response to the teddy bear news not the raped women. chez [/ QUOTE ] Oh, so he supports the Teddybear, but not the woman. Just kidding. Thanks for the clarification. |
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[ QUOTE ]
Also, to have an opinion on how another Religion should interpret its text is beyond my knowledge. So, really I’d rather not give an opinion on Islam tradition/laws. [/ QUOTE ] This is the Glass House dilemma that moderates are caught in. It's one of the targets of some of the neo-atheists. People who claim their moral are derived from private messages or coded ancient texts can't very well deny the other guy the right to do the same. So they can't enter into the "is this a moral action" discussion because the answer is "what does his book say". If it says it ok it's ok, same argument they'd use for a action based on their book or private sourced info. People like me don't give a [censored] what book some cult is claiming moral authority from. There are actions taken against people that are immoral by any meaning of humanity worth wanting. Moderates ARE one of the worlds problems precisely because of this running cover for the extremists that their approach to morality provides. luckyme |
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