Fight for Online Poker!!
 

Important action alert!!

The proposed UIGEA regulations have been released by the Department of the Treasury for public comment. This is our chance to affect the regs, as our comments. I ask everyone here who cares about Internet poker will submit comments in favor of freedom and liberty. Thanks!

The PPA has released a list of talking points for our comments. That way, we know our comments align with the best interests of poker. The article is at http://pokerplayersalliance.org/news...le.php?DID=293.

1. The proposed regulations should be modified to clarify that they don’t cover games predominantly determined by skill, such as poker, bridge, mahjong and backgammon. Section 5362(1)(a) of UIGEA defines a bet or wager as “the staking or risking by any person of something of value upon the outcome of a contest of others, a sporting event, or a game subject to chance,…” “Subject to chance” can be interpreted in a variety of ways, but in a gambling context it should reasonably be taken to mean games like roulette or slots where players bet against “the house” and success is determined by chance. Poker players compete, not against the house, but against each other, and the success of a player over any significant time interval is determined by that players’ skill.

2. The regulators must define what is and isn’t “unlawful Internet gambling.” The federal and state laws governing Internet gambling are very ambiguous -- nearly all of them were written before the advent of the Internet, and it is not clear how they apply to Internet gaming. In the proposed rule, the regulators emphasize that it is not their intention to clarify this question, because to do so would require them to examine the laws of every state with respect to every gaming modality. Yet that is exactly what they are requiring every bank and payment system to do individually.

3. The regulators should refrain from implementing the regulations until the U.S. resolves its international trade disputes. The World Trade Organization has found the U.S. to be out of compliance with its obligations under the General Agreement on Trade in Services because of its attempts at prohibiting Internet gambling. This is likely to cost the U.S. economy billions of dollars in lost market share and export opportunities. The U.S. government is in negotiations with its trading partners over this matter. Inasmuch as these regulations arguably make that situation worse, the regulators should hold off on finalizing the regulations until the U.S. can resolve its international trade obligations.

4. The proposed regulations should not infringe on personal privacy. UIGEA deputizes banks and payment systems and turns them into the Internet morality police. These regulations should not compel banks to scrutinize the private transactions of individual poker players and others. To do so is hostile to the personal and financial privacy of every American with a credit card or checking account.

5. The UIGEA and the enforcing regulations should not apply to Internet poker nationwide. Federal case law has consistently held that the Wire Act applies only to sports betting and very few states have any laws against Internet poker. These regulations should be clear to only block those transactions which are in fact against the law. Games of skill which are not outlawed under current federal law – such as poker, chess, bridge and majong -- should be exempt from the UIGEA and the regulations.



The Legislation Forum discussion thread is at http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=1#Post12525391.

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

Fight for Online Poker!! Week of 11/26 & 12/3

1. We have three more weeks to sumbit our comments on the proposed UIGEA regulations (Dec. 12th) so let's make a lot of comments between now and then. Please go to https://pokerplayersalliance.org/new...le.php?DID=293 for instructions on submitting your comments and for ideas on what to submit.

To comment:

Click here to comment at the FRB site
Click here to comment at the Treasury Dept site. Select "DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY*" at line 2 (the circled "2"), click submit, then click the comment icon to right of the UIGEA proposed rule.

To review sumbitted comments:

Clck here to view comments made to the Federal Reserve
Click here to read UIGEA regulations comments at the Treasury Dept site. Select "DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY*", click submit, then click the link to the far left of the UIGEA proposed rule ("TREAS-DO-2007-0015").

2. The House Judiciary Committee held a hearing on Internet gaming on Nov. 14th. Please write and call your congressman to remind them of our victory. The letter we all co-wrote with PPA is at http://capwiz.com/pokerplayersallian...46&type=co. Sending that takes less than one minute; adding info about the hearing takes only a few extra minutes. Regardless of when you last called, let's call this week. Phone numbers are at http://capwiz.com/pokerplayersalliance/dbq/officials. And, please contact the committee at http://judiciary.house.gov/contact.aspx to express your support for online poker. We won -- let's make sure we continue to be heard.

3. Write to your governor to tell him state laws should support your freedom to play. If you have ANY connection to MA, please contact Gov. Patrick and tell him you won't tolerate a ban on Internet poker. If you have ANY connection to KY, please contact governor-elect Steve Beshear and ask him to ensure that Internet poker is not excluded in his proposal to legalize casino gaming in the state.

4. Regularly write to newspapers and post to blogs. A few posts here and there can start to put us in the national zeitgeist.

Please see Fight for Online Poker!! Week of 11/26 & 12/3 for details and to post replies (let's keep all discussion on the parent thread in Legislation...thanks). Also, please remember to visit the Legislation forum on occasion to keep an eye on what's going on. Thanks! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

Well I just sent the email even though I live in DC and, consequently, it doesn't matter. Thanks for the hard work.

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

I'm playing online poker right now and it works just fine. "Regulating" it - just means they get into our business more than now.

I hope all these measures fail.

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing online poker right now and it works just fine. "Regulating" it - just means they get into our business more than now.

I hope all these measures fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've never had to try to deposit, but it sounds like a pain in the ass and I'm sure many casual fish don't bother after seeing all the hoops to jump through.

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing online poker right now and it works just fine. "Regulating" it - just means they get into our business more than now.

I hope all these measures fail.

[/ QUOTE ].

i've never had to try to deposit, but it sounds like a pain in the ass and I'm sure many casual fish don't bother after seeing all the hoops to jump through.

[/ QUOTE ]And I'm sure a lot of professional players don't see all the regulatory hoops that will eat into their profits.

If a casual player can't figure out how to get a reloadable Visa card, he's not smart enough to play poker. ePass is safer to use online for everything then your personal bank card. "Regulation" is the scariest thing that can possibly happen to poker.

Rather sneak into the back room of a bar.

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

[ QUOTE ]

If a casual player can't figure out how to get a reloadable Visa card, he's not smart enough to play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if he isn't smart enough to play online poker, I am not one to stop him from playing.

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well if he isn't smart enough to play online poker, I am not one to stop him from playing.

[/ QUOTE ]No one is stopping him now.

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing online poker right now and it works just fine. "Regulating" it - just means they get into our business more than now.

I hope all these measures fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you think it will just stay that way on its own, like magic? Sorry, but that's the attitude that got us where we are today. HR 4411, the bill that became UIGEA, passed the House 317-93! In case you missed that....317-93! That sounds "just fine" to you?

Sorry, but there is no sustainable status quo. We're in an unstable area that will either be filled by a ban or by some sort of legalization. If the status quo does remain, it will because of the people fighting back, not the ones doing nothing but hoping even the Wexler bill fails. If there was ever a doubt about that, UIGEA passing should have cured us of it.

You're entitled to your opinion, but please at least consider why it is we're fighting back, especially before posting to discourage the effort.

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well I just sent the email even though I live in DC and, consequently, it doesn't matter. Thanks for the hard work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I appreciate that.

I'm not sure what Del. Holmes can do, but she does have a vote at times, so I hope to have her support.

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing online poker right now and it works just fine. "Regulating" it - just means they get into our business more than now.

I hope all these measures fail.

[/ QUOTE ].

i've never had to try to deposit, but it sounds like a pain in the ass and I'm sure many casual fish don't bother after seeing all the hoops to jump through.

[/ QUOTE ]And I'm sure a lot of professional players don't see all the regulatory hoops that will eat into their profits.

If a casual player can't figure out how to get a reloadable Visa card, he's not smart enough to play poker. ePass is safer to use online for everything then your personal bank card. "Regulation" is the scariest thing that can possibly happen to poker.

Rather sneak into the back room of a bar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you should actually read the Wexler bill before trying to discourage people from supporting it.

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're entitled to your opinion, but please at least consider why it is we're fighting back, especially before posting to discourage the effort.

[/ QUOTE ]What makes you think I don't understand why you are fighting? Son, BTDT and some cop stole my t-shirt.

It matters not one whit what you or I say on a message board, it matters not how much or little money is thrown at this problem or how many letters of emails are written. They knew what they were gonna do to screw us before they stuck that last piece of unconstitutional blather onto the Port Security bill pushed through because of the treasonous piece of crap called the Patriot Act. Now they are just doing what they were always going to do and getting you to chant, "Thank you, Sir, may I have another!!"

A bunch of people scared you by saying, "You got yer freedom now sit in the back o' the bus or do ya wanna go back ta bein' a slave, boy!?"

I express my opinion and do so whether or not you agree or believe I am misinformed. And, having done that, I am done posting. But here's a little challenge. These bills you want passed? How about posting a link to them - to the FULL AND EXACT contents of each. Let's read them closely together, and see just precisely what they have stuck inside this thing that you think will be a victory if passed.

Yes, everything is fine. I play poker online. And unless well-meaning and mis-guided folks such as yourself help them REGULATE me, I will always be able to do so.

Never mind. They'll pass it if everyone tries to stop them.

Sorry.

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're entitled to your opinion, but please at least consider why it is we're fighting back, especially before posting to discourage the effort.

[/ QUOTE ]What makes you think I don't understand why you are fighting? Son, BTDT and some cop stole my t-shirt.

It matters not one whit what you or I say on a message board, it matters not how much or little money is thrown at this problem or how many letters of emails are written. They knew what they were gonna do to screw us before they stuck that last piece of unconstitutional blather onto the Port Security bill pushed through because of the treasonous piece of crap called the Patriot Act. Now they are just doing what they were always going to do and getting you to chant, "Thank you, Sir, may I have another!!"

A bunch of people scared you by saying, "You got yer freedom now sit in the back o' the bus or do ya wanna go back ta bein' a slave, boy!?"

I express my opinion and do so whether or not you agree or believe I am misinformed. And, having done that, I am done posting. But here's a little challenge. These bills you want passed? How about posting a link to them - to the FULL AND EXACT contents of each. Let's read them closely together, and see just precisely what they have stuck inside this thing that you think will be a victory if passed.

Yes, everything is fine. I play poker online. And unless well-meaning and mis-guided folks such as yourself help them REGULATE me, I will always be able to do so.

Never mind. They'll pass it if everyone tries to stop them.

Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

have you read it? it is easy enough to find. I have not, and don't plan on it. If you can point me to some reason why I shouldn't support it, I would certainly listen. I am guessing the answer is no though. It is tough to argue that games and game selection is as good as it was a year ago though. I don't see how doing nothing is going to pan out as a viable long term solution.

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

I wasn't going to post here again, but it was pointed out to me that someone might have taken offense at the "bus" reference. If so, I apologize, it was meant analogously, not personally.

[ QUOTE ]
have you read it? it is easy enough to find. I have not, and don't plan on it.

[/ QUOTE ]If it is so easy to find, why did you not post a link? And you haven't read it? So, you are here stumping for everyone to push to have a bill passed and you have no idea what it is you want us to support? Or what you are supporting yourself?

Look, I don't want to be all contentious but seriously, if you don't know what it says, how do you know you want it passed?

[ QUOTE ]
It is tough to argue that games and game selection is as good as it was a year ago though. I don't see how doing nothing is going to pan out as a viable long term solution.

[/ QUOTE ]I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I find more games and more players at more limits than ever. My money moves around just fine. What is it you are trying to solve?

Re: Fight for Online Poker!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't going to post here again, but it was pointed out to me that someone might have taken offense at the "bus" reference. If so, I apologize, it was meant analogously, not personally.

[ QUOTE ]
have you read it? it is easy enough to find. I have not, and don't plan on it.

[/ QUOTE ]If it is so easy to find, why did you not post a link? And you haven't read it? So, you are here stumping for everyone to push to have a bill passed and you have no idea what it is you want us to support? Or what you are supporting yourself?

Look, I don't want to be all contentious but seriously, if you don't know what it says, how do you know you want it passed?

[ QUOTE ]
It is tough to argue that games and game selection is as good as it was a year ago though. I don't see how doing nothing is going to pan out as a viable long term solution.

[/ QUOTE ]I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I find more games and more players at more limits than ever. My money moves around just fine. What is it you are trying to solve?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am simply not willing to take the time to read a bunch of draft regs. However, we have advocates on our behalf, including the PPA and people like Engineer that seem to think it is a good idea. What makes you think it isn't? Go to house.gov and pull a copy of it and let me know why your head in the sand approach is best. I was never stumping for it, just going with the general consensus of players that this is something we want. You have not stated one reason why I should not be for it.
Edit: 10 second search of the legislation forum found this link - http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/hp583.htm

My money moves around great through the 5 tables (above 1/2) going on Full Tilt that have the same relatively small batch of players there every day. It doesn't move around to party or crypto sites or paradise, or any of the sites where we are currently banned from playing. Game selection is probably 20% of what it was. There are rarely any new faces on a day-to-day basis and that number will dwindle even further if banks start tightening up controls on transactions.