when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

villain is bamboo6386 - a 22/13 unimaginative straightforward TAG. His cr size (BIG) w/ a player behind him SCREAMED strength. Obviously I still called w/ the intenion to trap HIM. But then on the turn, he bet hard and w/o any thought (instaneously)... my internal alarm, hundreds of thousands of hands played, to my inner core, SCREAMED that he has me beat. but of course I didn't listen! does anyone EVER listen to their internal mechanism here - or do we always say "f*ck it, I has a set, and I ain't folding!"

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $990.00
BB: $2,220.00
UTG: $1,553.00
Hero (MP): $1,020.00
CO: $358.75
BTN: $1,102.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $35.00</font>, 2 folds, SB calls $30.00, BB calls $25.00

Flop: ($105) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $75.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $215.00</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $140.00

Turn: ($535) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $535.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises all-in to $770.00</font>,

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

not on this board

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

so standard

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

i listen.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

this is AQ+ soo much and you know it.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
so standard

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course the action is standard - and OF COURSE i pushed over his bet. Maybe I shouldn't have included the action. I mean, i'm not lying - everything inside of my said "you are beat" (which of course didn't stop me from pushing).

I'm just curious when people let this little detector - that all pros/regs/good players have to a certain extent - take over.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

Given his preflop stats he can easily show up with A5s here. Not to mention AK/AQ. Only one higher set is logical given the action, but his range is a lot wider than that. Don't fold.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is AQ+ soo much and you know it.

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree vehemently. maybe against some donks. but this guy is pretty nitty and unimaginative. don't think he's cr-ing w/ it for one; and two, don't think he's full-potting it after i call the cr.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given his preflop stats he can easily show up with A5s here. Not to mention AK/AQ. Only one higher set is logical given the action, but his range is a lot wider than that. Don't fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


I didn't fold and i NEVER fold in this situation. Maybe I should've made this a theory post b/c I knew all the responses would be "you have a set, never fold". But i'm telling you based on dynamics, bet-timing and bet-sizing, i really felt like I was behind. whether you think i'm a mental retard is another story - but it IS what I sensed.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

The problem is you can be correct in that you view him as extremely strong, but he can give off the same vibes with A5s, so you can't be sure that you're beat.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

imo, unimaginative str8forward tags raise AQ/AK pre, c/c the flop, or check min-raise flop with it. this is a set of fives like every time.

but i still go broke, otherwise i cant complain about how bad i run.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given his preflop stats he can easily show up with A5s here. Not to mention AK/AQ. Only one higher set is logical given the action, but his range is a lot wider than that. Don't fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


I didn't fold and i NEVER fold in this situation. Maybe I should've made this a theory post b/c I knew all the responses would be "you have a set, never fold". But i'm telling you based on dynamics, bet-timing and bet-sizing, i really felt like I was behind. whether you think i'm a mental retard is another story - but it IS what I sensed.

[/ QUOTE ]

this just sounds like something nobody here can help you with.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

i never let my internal warning system take over that is why i cannot win at this stupid game anymore

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

this seems like a fold to me

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

this is funny, i just read this tread and then played this hand...

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $152.55
BB: $79.40
UTG: $202.85
Hero (BTN): $242.45

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7.00</font>, SB folds, BB calls $5.00

Flop: ($15) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $12.00</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $24.00</font>, Hero calls $12.00

Turn: ($63) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets all-in for $48.40</font>, Hero calls $48.40

River: ($159.80) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $159.80 ($2 Rake)

BB had 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Sixes) and WON (+$78.40)
Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Sixes) and LOST (-$79.40)

turn should have been an easy fold from timing and such but i pretty much snap called

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

I know what you're talking about and I let my "system" take over a lot more than I'm sure a lot of people do. I've made some folds that I'd be embarassed to post on here and that I'd NEVER usually make, but I'm pretty confident that most of them were correct at the time.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

if by "internal warning system" you mean a "feeling" that can not be empirically proven, meaning its not about the board or his stats or even betsizing/timing, i really wonder why anyone that plays poker seriously and makes money at it _has_ something like this.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
if by "internal warning system" you mean a "feeling" that can not be empirically proven, meaning its not about the board or his stats or even betsizing/timing, i really wonder why anyone that plays poker seriously and makes money at it _has_ something like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course it has to do with what happens in the hand. But sometimes your subconscious is just better in putting things together.
When my "warning system" conflicts with the concepts I've learned, I think I should listen more often to my internal advisor than I actually do. It seems to get it right surprisingly often.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

Look, if the flop was 234 and we had 222 and got a ton of action similar to this hand, you could make a good case for folding. But come on, there is no way this is a fold for the simple fact that he can have A5s and play the hand identically.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
if by "internal warning system" you mean a "feeling" that can not be empirically proven, meaning its not about the board or his stats or even betsizing/timing, i really wonder why anyone that plays poker seriously and makes money at it _has_ something like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
idiotic post.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
villain is bamboo6386 - a 22/13 unimaginative straightforward TAG. His cr size (BIG) w/ a player behind him SCREAMED strength. Obviously I still called w/ the intenion to trap HIM. But then on the turn, he bet hard and w/o any thought (instaneously)... my internal alarm, hundreds of thousands of hands played, to my inner core, SCREAMED that he has me beat. but of course I didn't listen! does anyone EVER listen to their internal mechanism here - or do we always say "f*ck it, I has a set, and I ain't folding!"

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $990.00
BB: $2,220.00
UTG: $1,553.00
Hero (MP): $1,020.00
CO: $358.75
BTN: $1,102.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $35.00</font>, 2 folds, SB calls $30.00, BB calls $25.00

Flop: ($105) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $75.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $215.00</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $140.00

Turn: ($535) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $535.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises all-in to $770.00</font>,

[/ QUOTE ]

how is that a "BIG" c/r? it's not even 3x your bet. anyway, it's extremely unlikely for you to have a straight here so he can easily still think his 2pr is good and is value betting a worse hand so i'd still get it in with 33.

to your more general question, i'm with chirs- i probably make a few folds here and there that ppl wouldn't agree with bc of a "feeling" or "internal wanring" like you suggested. i think it's fine to make these kinds of folds once in a while, dont think it's too smart to make it a habit though

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
villain is bamboo6386 - a 22/13 unimaginative straightforward TAG. His cr size (BIG) w/ a player behind him SCREAMED strength. Obviously I still called w/ the intenion to trap HIM. But then on the turn, he bet hard and w/o any thought (instaneously)... my internal alarm, hundreds of thousands of hands played, to my inner core, SCREAMED that he has me beat. but of course I didn't listen! does anyone EVER listen to their internal mechanism here - or do we always say "f*ck it, I has a set, and I ain't folding!"

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $990.00
BB: $2,220.00
UTG: $1,553.00
Hero (MP): $1,020.00
CO: $358.75
BTN: $1,102.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $35.00</font>, 2 folds, SB calls $30.00, BB calls $25.00

Flop: ($105) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $75.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $215.00</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $140.00

Turn: ($535) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $535.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises all-in to $770.00</font>,

[/ QUOTE ]

how is that a "BIG" c/r? it's not even 3x your bet. anyway, it's extremely unlikely for you to have a straight here so he can easily still think his 2pr is good and is value betting a worse hand so i'd still get it in with 33.

to your more general question, i'm with chirs- i probably make a few folds here and there that ppl wouldn't agree with bc of a "feeling" or "internal wanring" like you suggested. i think it's fine to make these kinds of folds once in a while, dont think it's too smart to make it a habit though

[/ QUOTE ]

Certain things - thru game-flow, etc. effect the way we view things. No - raising to 215 after a bet of $75 is not by definition a "BIG" raise. But in my experience w/ this player, when we were heads up, and the pot was $80, and I cbet $60 into the pot, he would cr me to $160. Obviously I didn't state this - but it skewed my opinion of "BIG".

But again, I posted the hand in attempt to open up discussion on listening to your subconscious (or "internal" system as I half-jokingly described it). Its pretty clear to most rational-thinking poker players that folding a set of 3's on this board is pretty silly in a vacuum. But it was other factors: the size of his cr; the size of his turn bet; the speed of his turn bet (literally instaneous - which in some situations is a bluff; but in others is a monster, from players who "are gonna make you pay big to draw" etc.) Additionally, just from a game-flow perspective (which I obviously can't include in any meaningful way in a post) - his actions said to me "I got a big hand, and I want to play a big post as quickly as possible". Its hard for me to describe this in any tangible way - but from teh way we had tangled in previous pots (timing, bet-sizing, etc., etc.,) I felt he was strong.

Of course as I mentioned, I told my subconscious to "shut the [censored] up, I have a set idiot!" I'm one who practically NEVER folds a set - i mean, i'm a calling station at heart! - but if there was ever a time, i think this may have been it. I posted it to see if others had these "feelings" - that you can't necessarily describe in explicit terms - that allowed them to make monster folds or hero calls.



fwif (NOT to justify my "internal" system) - villain had 555.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its hard for me to describe this in any tangible way - but from teh way we had tangled in previous pots (timing, bet-sizing, etc., etc.,) I felt he was strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you ignoring the fact that he will play A5s and perhaps A3s the exact same way?

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

Listen to your "internal warning system" if it is correct over 50% of the time.

Otherwise just keep calling down until that % is raised and you feel confident enough to fold.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its hard for me to describe this in any tangible way - but from teh way we had tangled in previous pots (timing, bet-sizing, etc., etc.,) I felt he was strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you ignoring the fact that he will play A5s and perhaps A3s the exact same way?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the love of god - i'm not. Have you listened to anything I've said? I didn't ignore it during the hand - I shoved - and i'm not ignoring it now. I'm actually smart enough to not fold sets in spots like this, ya know by convincing myself that he has A-5, or the ONLY other conceivable hand a straightforward TAG would play this way. I was trying to start a conversation about trusting your subconscious IN GENERAL.

and fwif, i don't think A5s turbo-bets this turn for full pot. He'd probably at least take a second or two to assess the situation, and wonder if he could actually be beat after my call of the CR - but thats beside the point.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its hard for me to describe this in any tangible way - but from teh way we had tangled in previous pots (timing, bet-sizing, etc., etc.,) I felt he was strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you ignoring the fact that he will play A5s and perhaps A3s the exact same way?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the love of god - i'm not. Have you listened to anything I've said? I didn't ignore it during the hand - I shoved - and i'm not ignoring it now. I'm actually smart enough to not fold sets in spots like this, ya know by convincing myself that he has A-5, or the ONLY other conceivable hand a straightforward TAG would play this way. I was trying to start a conversation about trusting your subconscious IN GENERAL.

and fwif, i don't think A5s turbo-bets this turn for full pot. He'd probably at least take a second or two to assess the situation, and wonder if he could actually be beat after my call of the CR - but thats beside the point.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said in your post before this you think that you maybe should have folded, which is it?

Regardless what your intentions were, using this hand as an example was not a good idea if you wanted any serious discussion on your theory.

Also I don't see why A5 wouldn't full pot the turn if 555 does. What does the turn change? The same hands that now beat A5 beat 55 as well.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if by "internal warning system" you mean a "feeling" that can not be empirically proven, meaning its not about the board or his stats or even betsizing/timing, i really wonder why anyone that plays poker seriously and makes money at it _has_ something like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

idiotic post.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

sup A5/54

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

I listen when it says call and I tell it to stfu when it says fold.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

Personally I think I should listen to myself slightly more often in similar spots, but this is going to vary from individual to individual perhaps more than any other feature of playing style (based on a lot of factors, especially how good your mind is at figuring these things out).

If you really want to know start keeping a log of every time you don't listen to a feeling like this and eventually you'll have enough results to figure out if you should be listening to it more/less (though unless you're calling every time you get this feeling your records may be biased).

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

Look at the EV in this manner.

The amount of times you call here and are shown a set and are beat you are not too unhappy

The Tilt/Life tilt you go on from folding here and getting shown A5 even once in a dozen times is probably more -EV.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

Call 100% of the time! What are you kidding?!?

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if by "internal warning system" you mean a "feeling" that can not be empirically proven, meaning its not about the board or his stats or even betsizing/timing, i really wonder why anyone that plays poker seriously and makes money at it _has_ something like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

idiotic post.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're both idiots for thinking it's idiotic.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if by "internal warning system" you mean a "feeling" that can not be empirically proven, meaning its not about the board or his stats or even betsizing/timing, i really wonder why anyone that plays poker seriously and makes money at it _has_ something like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

idiotic post.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're both idiots for thinking it's idiotic.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think youre an idiot for thinking the idiot comment was idiotic.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I listen when it says call and I tell it to stfu when it says fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, since you never know if you're right when you fold.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if by "internal warning system" you mean a "feeling" that can not be empirically proven, meaning its not about the board or his stats or even betsizing/timing, i really wonder why anyone that plays poker seriously and makes money at it _has_ something like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

idiotic post.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're both idiots for thinking it's idiotic.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't think the human brain functions on a subconscious level - than YOU are idiotic.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

Sigmund Freud on the subconscious:

an area of the mind one cannot be entirely aware of, but that still exerts some influence on one's thinking and actions.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

so you are arguing that what was named his "internal warning system" is nothing other than 'subconsciously' gathering information and making a read out of them?
if thats it, i think your all idiots for posting in this thread.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

Obv. would never fold in game but can certainly relate to the feeling you're talking about. Big folds however should be preserved for donkaments and super deep cash games.

Re: when do you allow your \"internal warning\" system take over???
 

[ QUOTE ]
so you are arguing that what was named his "internal warning system" is nothing other than 'subconsciously' gathering information and making a read out of them?
if thats it, i think your all idiots for posting in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come on! people read one post/sentence to judge an entire post. I SPECIFICALLY said in my first post that his bet-sizing/timing had lead me to CONsciously believe he was strong. But its absurd to discount your mind working on a subconscious level - that was also telling me he was strong... from things that I couldn't really describe in tangible terms in a post (such as game-flow the previous 30 minutes, how him and I had tangled in previous pots, etc., etc.,).

I really should never have posted this hand, or the fact the fact that I sometimes have a "gut feeling" that I am beat - in a way that is more than just: reading the board, assessing hand ranges, noting bet-sizes and computing pot odds. Sometimes your subconscious mind picks up on things that you do not consciously pick-up on, or can describe on "paper" when you post a hand on 2+2.