Standard Shove Scenerios
 

So I hear this a lot from the 2+2 posters: "Standard". But the problem is I don't know what situations are all standard. I hope I don't get flamed for this idea, but I would like to know if we could develop a list of standard shove scenerios (on the turn or flop). This could really help me in my game. I would like to have a clear list in my head of plays that are just plain standard. It may be the ABC's to you guys but I am not sure how you all always know what is standard.

Re: Standard Shove Scenerios
 

mm pretty wide ranging question, but i have a couple of examples over the last session or so where you might think im behind in both hands but by shoving i actually found myself in a decent spot - in general terms when someone says a hand is standard it generally means that both players are going to stack off here regardless, as their hand/draw is so strong.

FullTiltPoker Game #3743081690: Table Spunsilk (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 7:19:30 ET - 2007/10/03
Seat 1: Mr Hakahill ($130)
Seat 2: rubberduck2 ($73.05)
Seat 3: El-Razor ($100.70)
Seat 4: Scooper of Life ($148.80)
Seat 5: micelanya ($82.45)
micelanya posts the small blind of $0.50
Mr Hakahill posts the big blind of $1

Dealt to El-Razor [7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]

rubberduck2 calls $1
El-Razor raises to $4.50
Scooper of Life folds
micelanya calls $4
Mr Hakahill folds
rubberduck2 calls $3.50

*** FLOP *** [4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]

micelanya checks
rubberduck2 checks
El-Razor bets $14.50
micelanya raises to $58
rubberduck2 folds
El-Razor raises to $96.20, and is all in
micelanya calls $19.95, and is all in

micelanya shows [7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]
Uncalled bet of $18.25 returned to El-Razor

*** TURN *** [4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] [K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]

*** RIVER *** [4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] [4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]

El-Razor shows two pair, Sevens and Fours
micelanya shows two pair, Eights and Sevens
micelanya wins the pot ($167.40) with two pair, Eights and Sevens

in this hand i flop a great draw, c/bet it and get check raised - most beginners would automacally think straight here and think they are behind, but my hand is actually 65/35 fav, versus both the made straight and villans actual hand, 2 pair - in fact i am ahead of virtually concevable hand hand here except AAxxwc where i am 48/52, but the dead money already in the pot more than compensates for this. as a side note when you are playing around the 100bb mark it is usually correct to get all your money in the middle with AAxx w/NFD, as if you are up against a set you are usually no worse than 2-1 dog, and random 2 pairs are normally slightly better than a coin flip

in the second hand im the guy stacking off with AA - with not decent wrap available i thought i might be up against a set here, but yet again i give my opponent too much credit and he turns up with 2 pair and a rubbish flush, and im actually a marginal 52/48 fav

FullTiltPoker Game #3726039207: Table Garden (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 14:59:54 ET - 2007/10/01
Seat 1: Invie ($185.15)
Seat 2: RUIZAV ($76.80)
Seat 3: PrimeFknTime ($154.55)
Seat 4: nickyb2350 ($99)
Seat 5: iamnotkit ($195.15)
Seat 6: El-Razor ($89.70)
Invie posts the small blind of $0.50
RUIZAV posts the big blind of $1

Dealt to El-Razor [9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]c A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]h A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
PrimeFknTime calls $1
nickyb2350 calls $1
iamnotkit folds
El-Razor raises to $5.50
Invie calls $5
RUIZAV folds
PrimeFknTime calls $4.50
nickyb2350 calls $4.50

*** FLOP *** [8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]

Invie checks
PrimeFknTime checks
nickyb2350 checks
El-Razor bets $23
Invie calls $23
PrimeFknTime folds
nickyb2350 raises to $93.50, and is all in
El-Razor calls $61.20, and is all in
Invie folds

nickyb2350 shows [J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

*** TURN *** [8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] [2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]

*** RIVER *** [8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
[K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]

nickyb2350 shows a flush, King high
El-Razor shows a flush, Ace high
El-Razor wins the pot ($211.40) with a flush, Ace high

Re: Standard Shove Scenerios
 

Good post and good hands Elrazor

Re: Standard Shove Scenerios
 

Janelle,

Recently, I've seen you a lot at the full rings games on PS, but just haven't had the chance to sit with you for too long. Anyhow, here are a couple hands from yesterday that I believe are pretty standard shove situations.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1546901

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1546912

G/L to you at the tables

Re: Standard Shove Scenerios
 

i think stacking off with AAxx NFD is always ok, but i wouldnt say its super standard to felt TPNFD at a full table?? i think its abit too opponent/situation dependent to be totally standard

Re: Standard Shove Scenerios
 

ok about as standard as you are going to get - reraiser has top set with nothing showing so he has every reason to stack off, ive got a wrap/flush which actually makes me 58/42 favorite in this spot.

and for once i actually hit [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $95
UTG+1: $119.35
CO: $97.30
Hero: $146.90
SB: $188.10
BB: $93.50

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $4.5</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($22.5, 5 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $22.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $90</font>, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in $142.4</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 calls all-in $24.85</font>.
Uncalled bets: $27.55 returned to Hero.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($182.35, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $274.7)


River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($182.35, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $274.7)


Results:
Final pot: $182.35
<font color="#ffffff">UTG+1 showed 9s 7s 7c 2c</font>
<font color="#ffffff">Hero showed 8d 9h 5h 6c</font>

Re: Standard Shove Scenerios
 

Razor,

'i think stacking off with AAxx NFD is always ok, but i wouldnt say its super standard to felt TPNFD at a full table'

You're absolutely right and in EP, at a FR table, I rarely make this move. The table had been playing fast pre flop and very passive post flop so I thought I could take the whole thing down right there. Also, several hand before this, the table saw me play top set the same way. Thought I would serve up the same line just out of curiousity. Kinda testing the water w/ some of my lines. Hope this makes some sense.

Also, nice hand above. To me, this illustrates the need to carefully select your starting hands in a rpot in regards to position. Do we ever want to play 7792ds from ep in a rpot? Even if we hit we find ourselves barely ahead or in this case behind?! Nice wrap, great bettn.

Re: Standard Shove Scenerios
 

i also think that stacking off requirements are dictated by your bank roll. i think some of the hands mentioned in this thread are possibly thin because we dont exactly know if villan's have better re-draws but with adequate rolls, they are all fine to stack off with.

i also think the hands mentioned are excellent examples of that even though hero's hands might appear thin in some spots, they actually wernet when the hands were flipped over.

very nice examples.

Re: Standard Shove Scenerios
 

think about your hand

think about your opponents range of hands

think about potential turn cards and actions

act accordingly

Re: Standard Shove Scenerios
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, nice hand above. To me, this illustrates the need to carefully select your starting hands in a rpot in regards to position. Do we ever want to play 7792ds from ep in a rpot? Even if we hit we find ourselves barely ahead or in this case behind?! Nice wrap, great bettn.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point - if you hit top set the board is usually condensed with 7 being the highest card - if you are not up againts a made straight you are up against a good draw to one and middle and bottom set are always going to be marginal multi way, thats why its important to make sure you have some other cards to go with your 77xx, eg 7789, so you can at least have maybe some blockers and a bit of the straight draw yourself