When should child support end?
 

The question came to mind when I read in another thread that a guy married a woman who has two kids. He calls them "my boys" and obviously loves them and treats them as his own. For that I have great respect. It takes a huge heart I'm sure and he probably is and should be very proud.

That said, he talks about his income and his ability/limitations to reload, his wife's income, and the fact that the children's father pays a substantial amount in child support. That's what struck a chord.

The law is one thing and I don't want to talk about legalities. A parent's financial responsibility to his/her children in the event of a split is obvious.

However, when the spouse who has custody gets married again and a traditional family structure is once again realized and the person marrying into this situation considers the children his/her own, shouldn't this free the non custodial parent from any more regular financial obligation?

I'm not talking about holidays/birthdays/mall visits, etc, but rather regular substantial monthly payments.

Onaflag..........

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, when the spouse who has custody gets married again and a traditional family structure is once again realized and the person marrying into this situation considers the children his/her own, shouldn't this free the non custodial parent from any more regular financial obligation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ideally, this would be the rule. But then you will have the woman meet a new man and in all circumstances would make a perfect husband and wife, but will delay getting hitched because they don't want to miss out on the "free" money they are getting from baby-daddy.

Re: When should child support end?
 

flag,

interesting idea. i would ask, however, if that man would have married the woman if she didn't receive child support? if getting married released the previous husband from child support, wouldn't it provide a disincentive to marry?

a similar situation arose in the mid-20th century when welfare agents would literally conduct bed checks to see if women had male guests; if they did, their family benefits would be gone.

if the man is married to the woman, filing taxes jointly and getting credit for her children, i think it's fair to consider a reduction in payments from the bio father. but i wouldn't think cutting them off entirely was the right solution.

Re: When should child support end?
 

I think alimony payments should stop, but not child support. Perhaps it should be reduced somewhat, but it you marry a chick with kids, the other guy shouldn't be completely released of his responsibility.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ideally, this would be the rule. But then you will have the woman meet a new man and in all circumstances would make a perfect husband and wife, but will delay getting hitched because they don't want to miss out on the "free" money they are getting from baby-daddy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still happens anyway. I know a couple that have been living together for years (I think close to 10 years). He treats the kids as his own and they are, in all other respects, a traditional family. But they aren't married. The woman's ex-husband is fairly well off and a clause in the divorce decree eliminates alimony if she got remarried.

So they just live together and won't get married until the alimony runs out.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think alimony payments should stop, but not child support.

[/ QUOTE ]

i mean you can argue the merits of alimony all you want but this kind of goes against the whole point of making them.

let's put it this way. You and I start a pizza business together, and it becomes profitable. ten years later we decide to discontinue the partnership. I keep the business and have to pay you $X/year. two years later you start up another pizza business.. I can stop paying you now?

now obviously this is an extreme example and doesn't really care over well but as I understand it this is kind of the point of having to pay alimony.

Re: When should child support end?
 

I dont undertand the point of alimony. Assume kids arent part of the equation, why should one party recieve any of the other parties money? because its a partnership? well obviously the partnership probabyl was ineffective so how can you justify that it is the reason there was money made?

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
let's put it this way. You and I start a pizza business together, and it becomes profitable. ten years later we decide to discontinue the partnership. I keep the business and have to pay you $X/year. two years later you start up another pizza business.. I can stop paying you now?

[/ QUOTE ]

most buyouts in the business world include a noncompete clause. similar to how some alimony agreements have a remarriage clause.

Re: When should child support end?
 

The only way the dad should be released of his liability is if the new dad actually adopts the kids.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont undertand the point of alimony. Assume kids arent part of the equation, why should one party recieve any of the other parties money? because its a partnership? well obviously the partnership probabyl was ineffective so how can you justify that it is the reason there was money made?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the basic idea is either

1. the non-breadwinning partner is 'accustomed' to a certain quality of life (not very compelling to me)

2. one partner may have sacrificed some of their earning potential towards raising the family, or one partner may have supported the other while they got training of some sort. for instance, if one put the other through medical school, and then they got divorced. (this seems reasonable to me).

Re: When should child support end?
 

Aye, I guess, your point number 1 is BS imo, if they use that as a reason, number 2, if there are no kids or family involved, there should be no reason for the non-medical school partner (as an example), should get anything out of it. If there was a divorce, they couldnt have been doing that good of a job in supporting the other (unless of course, someone cheated, etc)

Re: When should child support end?
 

No it should not.

I am a father. I pay child support. My ex is happily married to a man who loves my son dearly. My son is not his responsibility, he is mine.

It should end when the child is 18.

Re: When should child support end?
 

Every divorce with kids I've heard of has what's called a MDA (marriage dissolution agreement). That's where all the future rules are established.

I bring this up for many reasons. one of which is the filing of taxes. I'm divorced and my ex and I had one son together. We agreed that we would take turns filing our son on our taxes each year.

I can only think of one reason why someone would stop paying child support. That is lets say the childs dad is a total loser. Basically abandons the child. If the childs mom goes to court to strip the dad of his parental rights. Then her new hubby tries to adopt the child.

I pay child support and I wouldn't want to stop it. I'd feel like I wasn't doing my duties. I'd also feel like I had less to do with him. My sons stepdad is a real cool guy. I like him a lot. But if I didn't have to pay child support i'd almost feel like he had more to say about my son than I did.

Also many times alimony is determined by the MDA as well. Sometimes it's a lump some payment and sometimes it's monthly. Sometimes it stops when the one receiving alimony remarries and sometimes it doesn't.

The MDA can involve some pretty odd stuff. In my MDA it states that I get to decide everything involving my sons education. Where my ex gets to decide anything involving religion. (although neither of us have ever had to pull that card out yet)

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only way the dad should be released of his liability is if the new dad actually adopts the kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure that's how the law works. Whether right or wrong, the law has to be followed. If this is indeed how it works only a fool would adopt the children or maybe a person with more moral integrity than financial greed.

I'm not saying the bio parent should disappear from their lives upon remarriage, but the custodial parent has given the children a normal environment assuming dual incomes when he/she got remarried.

The assumption is the children need to be provided for. Aren't they now being provided for twice? Just seems unfair to me. (and I am totally willing to be wrong, this is just how I feel)

Onaflag.........

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Aye, I guess, your point number 1 is BS imo, if they use that as a reason, number 2, if there are no kids or family involved, there should be no reason for the non-medical school partner (as an example), should get anything out of it. If there was a divorce, they couldnt have been doing that good of a job in supporting the other (unless of course, someone cheated, etc)

[/ QUOTE ]

well people choose to get divorced for emotional or personal reasons as well as fidelity type issues. just because people aren't emotionally compatible doesn't mean one didn't shell out 100k for the other to go to school.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only way the dad should be released of his liability is if the new dad actually adopts the kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure that's how the law works. Whether right or wrong, the law has to be followed. If this is indeed how it works only a fool would adopt the children or maybe a person with more moral integrity than financial greed.

I'm not saying the bio parent should disappear from their lives upon remarriage, but the custodial parent has given the children a normal environment assuming dual incomes when he/she got remarried.

The assumption is the children need to be provided for. Aren't they now being provided for twice? Just seems unfair to me. (and I am totally willing to be wrong, this is just how I feel)

Onaflag.........

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense I think you're totally wrong here.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No it should not.

I am a father. I pay child support. My ex is happily married to a man who loves my son dearly. My son is not his responsibility, he is mine.

It should end when the child is 18.

[/ QUOTE ]

good for you, man. very mature way to look at things...

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont undertand the point of alimony. Assume kids arent part of the equation, why should one party recieve any of the other parties money? because its a partnership? well obviously the partnership probabyl was ineffective so how can you justify that it is the reason there was money made?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have an Aunt in her late 60s in mediocre health (in other words, not really able to work), and her 72 year old husband just left her out of the blue for a woman 28 years his junior. Do you really think it's right that my Aunt, who has been nothing but a loving and faithful partner, should get completely screwed just because this douche bag is having a mid-life crisis at age 72?

He has every right to leave the marriage, but there's no way I agree with you that he shouldn't be obligated to take care of my aunt financially after 30-odd years of marriage.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont undertand the point of alimony. Assume kids arent part of the equation, why should one party recieve any of the other parties money? because its a partnership? well obviously the partnership probabyl was ineffective so how can you justify that it is the reason there was money made?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have an Aunt in her late 60s in mediocre health (in other words, not really able to work), and her 72 year old husband just left her out of the blue for a woman 28 years his junior. Do you really think it's right that my Aunt, who has been nothing but a loving and faithful partner, should get completely screwed just because this douche bag is having a mid-life crisis at age 72?

He has every right to leave the marriage, but there's no way I agree with you that he shouldn't be obligated to take care of my aunt financially after 30-odd years of marriage.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

FWIW many people only think women receive alimony. I've seen a few men receive it as well. Wouldn't that be nice?

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I have an Aunt in her late 60s in mediocre health (in other words, not really able to work), and her 72 year old husband just left her out of the blue for a woman 28 years his junior. Do you really think it's right that my Aunt, who has been nothing but a loving and faithful partner, should get completely screwed just because this douche bag is having a mid-life crisis at age 72?

He has every right to leave the marriage, but there's no way I agree with you that he shouldn't be obligated to take care of my aunt financially after 30-odd years of marriage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, it totally depends. If she was staying at home, running the house, and not working because that was what they had agreed upon, then yes. If she had a career of her own that she was pursuing the whole time, and hadn't really foregone much in the way of income, then I don't think there's a particularly compelling argument to be made for it.

I had this discussion with my girlfriend a few years ago and she pointed out NT's argument 2 to me, which seems like the only good reason for these payments.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I have an Aunt in her late 60s in mediocre health (in other words, not really able to work), and her 72 year old husband just left her out of the blue for a woman 28 years his junior. Do you really think it's right that my Aunt, who has been nothing but a loving and faithful partner, should get completely screwed just because this douche bag is having a mid-life crisis at age 72?

He has every right to leave the marriage, but there's no way I agree with you that he shouldn't be obligated to take care of my aunt financially after 30-odd years of marriage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should he be obligated to take care of her now when her body is failing? Only if he wants to. Survival of the fittest, and your aunt is not fit enough to survive at this point. Too bad.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I have an Aunt in her late 60s in mediocre health (in other words, not really able to work), and her 72 year old husband just left her out of the blue for a woman 28 years his junior. Do you really think it's right that my Aunt, who has been nothing but a loving and faithful partner, should get completely screwed just because this douche bag is having a mid-life crisis at age 72?

He has every right to leave the marriage, but there's no way I agree with you that he shouldn't be obligated to take care of my aunt financially after 30-odd years of marriage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should he be obligated to take care of her now when her body is failing? Only if he wants to. Survival of the fittest, and your aunt is not fit enough to survive at this point. Too bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

He should have never married her in the first place, then.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont undertand the point of alimony. Assume kids arent part of the equation, why should one party recieve any of the other parties money? because its a partnership? well obviously the partnership probabyl was ineffective so how can you justify that it is the reason there was money made?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have an Aunt in her late 60s in mediocre health (in other words, not really able to work), and her 72 year old husband just left her out of the blue for a woman 28 years his junior. Do you really think it's right that my Aunt, who has been nothing but a loving and faithful partner, should get completely screwed just because this douche bag is having a mid-life crisis at age 72?

He has every right to leave the marriage, but there's no way I agree with you that he shouldn't be obligated to take care of my aunt financially after 30-odd years of marriage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know, I just think that this si legistlating morality. Is it the right thing to do, yes, should the government make him do it? I personally dont believe so.



Edit: I know this is going to be harsh, but imo, in a situation like that, why should anyone get anything after the partnership has split up?? they should divide the assets tehy accumulated together evenly, and but he has already supported her for 30 years, why should have to after they break up?

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]

He should have never married her in the first place, then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's perfectly logistical to know you will care about someone enough 30 years from the point of marriage that you will want to take care of them as their body breaks down.

Yes, that's the spirit of the ceremony, but use some common sense: it's not always happening, nor should one expect it to. Now, maybe you can make an argument that he should break up the marriage as soon as he WOULDN'T care for her in a time of need; I would agree with you there.

Re: When should child support end?
 

Marriage is like a contract. If you don't want to continue supporting your spouse if its disolved get a pre-nup.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont undertand the point of alimony. Assume kids arent part of the equation, why should one party recieve any of the other parties money? because its a partnership? well obviously the partnership probabyl was ineffective so how can you justify that it is the reason there was money made?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have an Aunt in her late 60s in mediocre health (in other words, not really able to work), and her 72 year old husband just left her out of the blue for a woman 28 years his junior. Do you really think it's right that my Aunt, who has been nothing but a loving and faithful partner, should get completely screwed just because this douche bag is having a mid-life crisis at age 72?

He has every right to leave the marriage, but there's no way I agree with you that he shouldn't be obligated to take care of my aunt financially after 30-odd years of marriage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know, I just think that this si legistlating morality. Is it the right thing to do, yes, should the government make him do it? I personally dont believe so.



Edit: I know this is going to be harsh, but imo, in a situation like that, why should anyone get anything after the partnership has split up?? they should divide the assets tehy accumulated together evenly, and but he has already supported her for 30 years, why should have to after they break up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, forgive me for being old fashioned, but (1) he did take a vow, and (2) she's completely fukked without his support after the divorce. If you're going to break a vow, you have to pay the price.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I have an Aunt in her late 60s in mediocre health (in other words, not really able to work), and her 72 year old husband just left her out of the blue for a woman 28 years his junior. Do you really think it's right that my Aunt, who has been nothing but a loving and faithful partner, should get completely screwed just because this douche bag is having a mid-life crisis at age 72?

He has every right to leave the marriage, but there's no way I agree with you that he shouldn't be obligated to take care of my aunt financially after 30-odd years of marriage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should he be obligated to take care of her now when her body is failing? Only if he wants to. Survival of the fittest, and your aunt is not fit enough to survive at this point. Too bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty heartless, but more importantly he's obligated to by law.

Do vows mean nothing?

Re: When should child support end?
 

My father had to pay until my 18th birthday. He even paid after she married again (and got divorced again after 5 years).

Re: When should child support end?
 

I hate that you brought up your aunt, because Im not making a direct attack on her, but imo, anyone who cant survive on their own after a divorce, did it to themselves by using marriage as a crutch. 50 something % of all marriages end in divorce, if you are planning ahead, I cant have much sympathy.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate that you brought up your aunt, because Im not making a direct attack on her, but imo, anyone who cant survive on their own after a divorce, did it to themselves by using marriage as a crutch. 50 something % of all marriages end in divorce, if you are planning ahead, I cant have much sympathy.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about a spouse who stays home and takes care of the kids/home so the other one can work?

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate that you brought up your aunt, because Im not making a direct attack on her, but imo, anyone who cant survive on their own after a divorce, did it to themselves by using marriage as a crutch. 50 something % of all marriages end in divorce, if you are planning ahead, I cant have much sympathy.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about a spouse who stays home and takes care of the kids/home so the other one can work?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said earlier that when there are kids involved its a different ball game.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate that you brought up your aunt, because Im not making a direct attack on her, but imo, anyone who cant survive on their own after a divorce, did it to themselves by using marriage as a crutch. 50 something % of all marriages end in divorce, if you are planning ahead, I cant have much sympathy.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about a spouse who stays home and takes care of the kids/home so the other one can work?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said earlier that when there are kids involved its a different ball game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, fair enough, I didn't see that post.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate that you brought up your aunt, because Im not making a direct attack on her, but imo, anyone who cant survive on their own after a divorce, did it to themselves by using marriage as a crutch. 50 something % of all marriages end in divorce, if you are planning ahead, I cant have much sympathy.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about a spouse who stays home and takes care of the kids/home so the other one can work?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, look...these laws exist primarily so that people can make plans. That's part of the reason marriage is significant, IMO. It allows you to live your life as a couple, make decisions as a couple, and know that there are some legal protections involved should your commitment to one another fail.

Certainly there are instances where it sucks. If my fiancee were to start banging some other dude after we get married and then were owed alimony payments from me because I make more money, then that would truly suck. And to be honest, I don't know if that would be the case.

But at the same time, if alimony were not a part of the deal, and (as a particularly blunt poster pointed out) 50% of marriages end in divorce and so people should be realistic enough to plan for that possibility...then why should my fiancee ever quit working? Yeah, it'd be better for the family we plan to have if at some point she can concentrate only on our house, kids, etc...and before then it may well be better for my business if she quits working for a salary and works for me...but why would she do any of that if she were being realistic about the 50% AND had no legal protection should something legitimately unfortunate happen to our marriage?

This is why laws like these exist.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I dont know, I just think that this si legistlating morality. Is it the right thing to do, yes, should the government make him do it? I personally dont believe so

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you don't believe the government should enforce contracts?

Re: When should child support end?
 

The argument for alimony is, at least in part, based on the assumption that one person stayed at home to tend hearth and home(sacrificing the chance to achieve eduction, business opportunity, career, income etc.) while the other person worked and had a career.

I think that trapsetter's aunt is the perfect example. Another example would be a mother who, post divorce is the primary caretaker and is not able to work full-time without sacrificing some portion of her parental care.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The argument for alimony is, at least in part, based on the assumption that one person stayed at home to tend hearth and home(sacrificing the chance to achieve eduction, business opportunity, career, income etc.) while the other person worked and had a career.

I think that trapsetter's aunt is the perfect example. Another example would be a mother who, post divorce is the primary caretaker and is not able to work full-time without sacrificing some portion of her parental care.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually my aunt was quite successful in her day. She hasn't worked in years though, and both she and her ex-husband were never exactly shy about spending money, and she also gave a lot of her money away to deadbeat relatives.

Re: When should child support end?
 

[ QUOTE ]
shouldn't this free the non custodial parent from any more regular financial obligation?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to say "when they remove the word 'parent' from his title" but I have to think about this one a little...

If he gets to stop giving money, does he get cut off from seeing the kids? Seems "fair" to do both, doesn't it?

This is a tricky one- I'll have to revisit this on Sunday.