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-   -   2+2ers hitting up a play money site? (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=557248)

WillyT 11-30-2007 06:31 PM

Re: 2+2ers hitting up a play money site?
 
Am I the only one that's a little bit freaked out by this???!!!

I mean, it may be useful to get some information from playing on the site, but what about all the information/data you guys are giving away to the site operators and whoever else has access to the data they collect and the winning player models they observe/create???

Seems like you're handing out a ticket for a collection of players to come out and start crushing your games?!? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

-Bill

Tryptamean 11-30-2007 06:54 PM

Re: 2+2ers hitting up a play money site?
 
yeah soon there will be 100s of sonia clones on stars calling 3 cold OOP and crushing the games

WillyT 11-30-2007 07:25 PM

Re: 2+2ers hitting up a play money site?
 
sarcasm?

DeathDonkey 11-30-2007 07:47 PM

Re: 2+2ers hitting up a play money site?
 
Hi Marc,

I hope you saw my comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I conversed a bit with the other Mark by email and he explained exactly what you just stated to me. I was more commenting on the fact that IF Sonia is crushing the games then us humans have been making a lot of strategic mistakes against players such as the typical opponents at your tables. That scares me a bit because we (2+2ers who study and think about the game) take certain things for granted that Sonia will either prove wrong or we will all continue to disagree with her about. I hope you could see why this would be unsettling to some of us, a shift of thought has to occur given the potential evidence Sonia can bring to the table about her correct play.

All, at first I was a bit freaked out by the site too, and a friend even told me "do you think they are just modeling your play to make a bot that will crush the online games" but what it comes down to for me is they certainly don't need to go to all the trouble of creating a site like this if that was the sneaky secret goal. I mean they could just hire the best players out there to come and give them strategy advice in private. The fact that they are open and honest about what the site is and isn't is pretty reassuring. I for one think these days limit hold'em strategy discussion often is boring or we repeat the same things we've asked and discussed many times before, but playing with my virtual player and seeing his stats and results and what he concludes about my play from small samples of hands is giving me a new perspective on potential leaks in my game, ways opponents perceive us in a small sample of hands, and then there is Sonia's play itself, which might lead to a lot of things we thought were correct plays being shown to be suboptimal.

-DeathDonkey

PokerBob 11-30-2007 07:57 PM

Re: 2+2ers hitting up a play money site?
 
[ QUOTE ]
this is hilarious. someone created a site where pbob runs hot and crushes all.


[/ QUOTE ]

i just saw that. I have $37k and the next guy has $2500. this clearly cannot be real, as no site would ever let me win.

mtgordon 11-30-2007 09:03 PM

Ummmm, what?
 
So Sonia 3bets pf w/K9o then caps the flop w/gutshot + 2 overs? Something seems fishy.

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to PokerYoda [ Ts Js ]
<rick_rolled> calls [$1]
<phaethon> raises [$2]
<BaronKedal> folds
Sonia raises [$3]
PokerYoda folds
<MrRedpoint> calls [$2]
<rick_rolled> calls [$2]
<phaethon> raises [$2]
Sonia calls [$1]
<MrRedpoint> calls [$1]
<rick_rolled> calls [$1]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 6s, 5d ]
<MrRedpoint> checks
<rick_rolled> checks
<phaethon> bets [$1]
Sonia calls [$1]
<MrRedpoint> calls [$1]
<rick_rolled> raises [$2]
<phaethon> raises [$2]
Sonia raises [$3]
<MrRedpoint> folds
<rick_rolled> calls [$2]
<phaethon> calls [$1]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
<rick_rolled> bets [$2]
<phaethon> calls [$2]
Sonia calls [$2]
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
<rick_rolled> bets [$2]
<phaethon> calls [$2]
Sonia raises [$4]
<rick_rolled> raises [$4]
<phaethon> calls [$4]
Sonia raises [$4]
<rick_rolled> calls [$2]
<phaethon> calls [$2]
Sonia shows [ Kc, 9h ] A Nine High Straight
<rick_rolled> shows [ 7c, 9s ] A Nine High Straight
<phaethon> doesn't show [ Qd, Qc ] Two Pair, Queens and Fives
Sonia wins $29.75 from the main pot with A Nine High Straight
<rick_rolled> wins $29.75 from the main pot with A Nine High Straight

yellowjack 12-01-2007 02:51 AM

Re: Ummmm, what?
 
This is mostly for Aaron W, example from Sonia:

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9854/sonialv6.jpg

DeathDonkey 12-01-2007 06:56 AM

Re: Ummmm, what?
 
Is it bad that I don't want to pay Sonia for advice because I want to have more virtual $ so I'm higher on the leaderboard?

-DeathDonkey

inferno 12-01-2007 07:40 AM

Re: Ummmm, what?
 
guess what virtual me doesnt play like me

PokerParadimeMk 12-01-2007 11:58 AM

Re: 2+2ers hitting up a play money site?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am also interested in how much lhe poker-specific information is needed to "train" Sofia?

Reading the description on the website, it sounds as if almost none is required. That is, it sounds as if Sofia is a general engine that needs nothing more than the game rules in order to work its magic, but that seems pretty difficult to believe.

For example, did you have to define situational categories like board textures, betting sequences, etc, that Sofia knew it needed to collect data on and base modelling on? Or was Sofia somehow able to create those categories herself (that seems almost impossible to me)?

J

[/ QUOTE ]

There is some information about this on the Technology page, but basically we do translate game events into a more digestible form for Sonia first (e.g. current pot size, who last bet, the button position etc.). This translation stage can be thought of as her basic set of 'sensory connectors' to the outside world. However, the derivation of meaning from this information, how to use it, when it's important etc. is entirely self learnt by Sonia during her initial training phase, and then ongoing on the site as she interacts with real human players.

The fact that this very thin sensory layer can be replaced by a different layer is what should make her suitable for use in other domains.

I hope this goes some way to answering your questions.


[ QUOTE ]
Also, why does sonia not get the <> around her name if she is also a virtual player?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sonia is not a model of any player, hence no <>.


Mark


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