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-   -   Learning stud hi lo (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=493846)

Taso 09-05-2007 12:04 AM

Learning stud hi lo
 
First of all, is it Stud Hi LOW? Or Stud Hi lo? Or Stud eights or better?

I've played 3 tournaments of it so far (play money, lol, just until I can have a clue of what I'm doing) one was a 90 person, I came in 6th, the other was a 9 person sng, I came in 1st, and the last (which I'm still playing) is another 9 person sit and go and I'll come in 2nd or 1st. <Point is, I have a general idea of how the game works (compared to the utter confusion I felt anytime someone mentioned a stud game to me in the past.

I want to know where to go to learn the very basics. I checked the sticky in this forum, and it helped a bit, but there's a lot more. I have supersystems back at my apartment in Philly but I'm not going there for another week or so - would the chapter in that book help out someone who has just started the game? I don't know much of anything about 7 stud in general, so the %'s and all that stuff, I don't know anything about. NL hold'em I know the odds, and when I'm a favorite, but stud I'm not sure.

In any case can anyone suggest a way to learn the very basics? I learned most of the hold 'em basics through TV I think, the very basics I mean. And then I read a lot, talked a lot of strategy, figured out how to calculate chance to win, pot odds, implied, etc, but there is very little stud on TV, and what is there is BS ESPN all in stuff. Maybe a month ago I wondered how anyone could win stud hi lo playing heads up, cause wouldn't all the pots be split ? :P

Anyways, thanks, I've barely played this game but I'm starting to really like it.

2461Badugi 09-05-2007 12:27 AM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, is it Stud Hi LOW? Or Stud Hi lo? Or Stud eights or better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

The section in SuperSystem 2 is probably the best introduction. The original SuperSystem chapter is on Hi/lo no qualifier, rather than with an eight-low qualifier, and will be useless to you.

Learning Stud/8 is a lot easier if you don't know anything about Stud, so you've started out well already.

Taso 09-05-2007 01:07 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
Ok great, can't wait to get back to Philly and read that. I have SS2 not the original, so that works out.

thanks for the answer.

nearlyalex 09-05-2007 04:37 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
probably the best book on it is ray zee's 'high-low split poker' which is half on stud8 and the other half on omaha8 but definitely worth reading although Todd Brunsons section in SS2 is probably best to read first, but read both.

Taso 09-05-2007 10:42 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
thanks, i'll check that out too.

If I usually play .25/.50 poker, whats the right limits to be playing stud hi lo? I might try to get a game like this going live at my place, just for us all to learn. Also, what is a normal buy in?

Andy B 09-06-2007 12:08 AM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
High-low stud
Hi-lo stud
Stud/8
Stud Eight-or-better

Any of those will work.

Ray Zee's book is the nuts. Todd Brunson's section in SS2 is very good.

When you say you play $.25/.50 poker, do you mean limit or no-limit? Your favorite site may have a $.25/.50 limit game. If you mean NL, the equivalent might be somewhere from $.50/1.00 to $2/4. You might want to stay on the small side while you're learning.

One of my biggest scores ever involved a heads-up stud/8 match. This is not to say that I'm any good at heads-up stud/8.

Taso 09-06-2007 02:11 AM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
Yeah sorry, I meant NL. I may give .5/1 a try if I can build up a roll a bit playing low stakes NL, otherwise it will have to wait until I have some income from non-poker stuff.

In any case, if I'm doing $.50/1.00 hi-lo stud whats a good buy in? (ie, most people recommend doing 100xBB for NL cash games, although some do recommend playing good short stack poker)

What was the big win? (Or is it rude to ask? lol)

Thanks

Andy B 09-06-2007 02:54 AM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
I usually buy in for 25 BB and reload somewhere between 15 and 20 BB. I want enough in front of me that I can cap every round if I see fit. My local room has a five-bet cap, but four is pretty much universal online.

The score in question was about $4000 at $30/60 stud/8 in 2002. About half of that was won heads-up against an extremely terrible player between about 7 am and 10 am after everyone else went home.

Taso 09-06-2007 06:04 AM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
Nice pick up :P

Thanks for the help with regards to buy in.

RustyBrooks 09-06-2007 11:06 AM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
[ QUOTE ]

In any case, if I'm doing $.50/1.00 hi-lo stud whats a good buy in?


[/ QUOTE ]

There is no real benefit to playing a limit game short stacked because you can't apply any more pressure on your opponents than with a larger stack, for the most part. The advantage (?) of a small stack in no limit is that you can make someone decide preflop or on the flop whether they want to continue the hand with no more options to outplay you. With a small stack in limit you still have to get it all in which is going to take the co-operation of the other player, unless you have less than 1bb.

I won't play with less than the amount that I'd need to cap every street, so in a stud game that's 4bb for 5th 6th and 7th and 2bb for 3rd and 4th, a total of 16bb, so for .5/1 that's $16. It's an arbitrary rule but you just never know when someone's going to come along and make it worth your while. Biggest pot of my life (limit) was 50bb and I was glad that I had enough in front of me to keep raising.

If you're playing live, see what other people are buying in with. I like to blend in and not have 2-3x as much as everyone else. In live games people often buy in way way too low for some reason (the standard buyin for $4/$8 at a place I play sometimes seems to be $100 which is only 12bb. At that place I'll usually buy in for 160). Anyway I generally try to not do anything at the table that will point out that I'm paying attention, thinking about poker, etc, etc.

Online people usually just buy in for the default which is often way too low. On FTP the default is 10bb I think. I usually just double it and start with 20bb. I used to always buy in for 50bb but I soon realized there was no point, I can just rebuy if I get low and it makes me look weird to have 3x as much as anyone else when I sit down.

Kurn, son of Mogh 09-06-2007 04:59 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
[ QUOTE ]
I usually buy in for 25 BB and reload somewhere between 15 and 20 BB. I want enough in front of me that I can cap every round if I see fit. My local room has a five-bet cap, but four is pretty much universal online.

The score in question was about $4000 at $30/60 stud/8 in 2002. About half of that was won heads-up against an extremely terrible player between about 7 am and 10 am after everyone else went home.

[/ QUOTE ]

As an aside, you know that Mike Matusow has offered to stake anyone willing to play Hellmuth HU at Stud/8. I've always wanted to run into them at a tournament and see if he was serious. You'd be an even better choice for the Mouth to stake. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Taso 09-06-2007 07:11 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
thanks for the explanation rusty.

I just trippled up in my nl hold 'em game, so I'm going to try out a cheap ($2) stud SNG. It seems as if no one wants to play though, just me and another guy sitting here waiting for 6 more players.

Anyone reading this sees "Tasocles" sitting waiting for a stud SNG, join in :P

Andy B 09-06-2007 08:52 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
Actually, I think I've played stud/8 heads-up four times, with that as my only win. I do like my chances against Hellmuth in a heads-up cash game, but I would definitely need the ol' iPod.

Taso 09-06-2007 09:08 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the explanation rusty.

I just trippled up in my nl hold 'em game, so I'm going to try out a cheap ($2) stud SNG. It seems as if no one wants to play though, just me and another guy sitting here waiting for 6 more players.

Anyone reading this sees "Tasocles" sitting waiting for a stud SNG, join in :P

[/ QUOTE ]

I won [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Beginners luck I suppose. Although I think the real reason I won was because when we got down to 3 handed, I had picked up on these two players playing kind of scared, trying to move up in the money maybe, and I exploited that - didn't have much to do with actual knowledge of the stud hi lo, but more to do with knowledge of poker in general. And while I hardly ever, ever, play nl hold 'em tournaments, I do know how to, and applied similar theories to this sit and go.

In any case, my first time playing with money and I got first place - I'm happy with it. It was long though, took maybe an hour and a half...

Edit: I'm going for round 2, so again, if any of you want to come slumming and play a $2 sit and go, find TASOCLES on ftp.

Taso 09-07-2007 05:32 AM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I'm going for round 2, so again, if any of you want to come slumming and play a $2 sit and go, find TASOCLES on ftp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Came in 2nd my second go around. I think because the stakes are so low, generally I'm playing against people who have no idea what they are doing at all. Which is great for making money (albeit a miniscule amount) but not so great for learning.

Once I build up a bit I'm going to give cash game stud hi lo a shot. I'm really not a tournament player at all, been playing cash games regularly for around 2 years now live, and just started playing online this summer, did cash games, went bust with bad bankroll management, and now I'm trying to build it up with sit and gos.

Once again going to remind you all, if you see Tasocles, come play with me and give me some tips :P

Ray Zee 09-08-2007 12:12 AM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
learning lots of games makes you well rounded and a better all game player. stud/8 is a game when played against much weaker players nets you lots of easy money.
plus when learning it is plenty of fun. and having fun at poker is good. practice reading hands as thats the key to winning in poker. good luck.

Paul77 09-10-2007 01:26 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
I wrote a book for low-stakes stud 8 players, "How to Beat Seven Card Stud Eight-or-Better at the Lower Limits." It's an e-book; it was all set to be published but that fell through with the UIGA last fall. But stud 8 thrives online, and it's a great game. You can get the book at booklocker.com, ebookmall.com, or you can drop me a line and I'll send you a copy. I sent out a few copies to the folks on this forum, so am happy to send you one for free. It's about 250 pages, and includes handy odds tables prepared by Dr. Paul Dreyer of the RAND institute to help you discern if that low is really worth going for or not.

Good luck on the felt - say hi on Stars, I'm Parrothead77.

Take er easy,
Paul

MayfairClubGuy 09-19-2007 05:21 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually buy in for 25 BB and reload somewhere between 15 and 20 BB. I want enough in front of me that I can cap every round if I see fit. My local room has a five-bet cap, but four is pretty much universal online.

The score in question was about $4000 at $30/60 stud/8 in 2002. About half of that was won heads-up against an extremely terrible player between about 7 am and 10 am after everyone else went home.

[/ QUOTE ]

As an aside, you know that Mike Matusow has offered to stake anyone willing to play Hellmuth HU at Stud/8. I've always wanted to run into them at a tournament and see if he was serious. You'd be an even better choice for the Mouth to stake. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


Matusow will stake someone ?? Really ?? Hell, in 1990 I was tearing up the WSOP stud 8/better satellites. Beat Hellmuth 3 satellites running until he threw a chair at me.

I am VERY game for this.
I only wish I could believe it was true.

2461Badugi 09-19-2007 08:49 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
[ QUOTE ]

Matusow will stake someone ?? Really ?? Hell, in 1990 I was tearing up the WSOP stud 8/better satellites. Beat Hellmuth 3 satellites running until he threw a chair at me.

I am VERY game for this.
I only wish I could believe it was true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that Mike has no money.

Andy B 09-19-2007 11:51 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
That is a bit of a drawback if you're in the staking business.

A year or so ago, I was out having pizza with a group of non-poker-playing friends. There were several TVs in the joint, and a few of them were showing a poker tournament. The sound was off, but pretty much every time I looked up, Matusow was running at the mouth while paying off the nuts. One of my friends remarked that Matusow has mannerisms very similar to his own.

Bruce has Tourette's syndrome.

SGspecial 09-20-2007 03:01 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
Hey Taso, welcome to the stud forum.

Hope your stud/8 training has continued to go well. I can't offer you much advice on that game, but if you want to learn anything about any stud game this is a good place to start (oh, and listening to Ray is probly a good idea too).

p.s. it was fun playing with you at Brian's last night. I thought I recognized your name somehow. Maybe those guys will want to spread a HORSE cash game for variety some night.

Taso 09-20-2007 05:06 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
My actual playing has ended Dan, but I did just start reading Todd Brunson's chapter in Super System II, so I'm starting to get an idea of what I'm doing. I really do need to play it live, but that'll have to wait a while, short on cash now, but once I can you'll be the first that comes to mind.

Pleasure playing with you as well, you are a gentleman and a scholar, :P PM sent

Taso 12-01-2007 06:26 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
So I've started up again, bigger bankroll than my last attempt, and I'm at pokerstars now (couldn't deposit for like 6 months due to gaming restrictions with my bank). Unfortunetly, it seems like pstars doesn't have those nice little $2 stud 8 sitngo's that full tilt did - the minimum appears to be $5, which isn't much at all, but I feel like it'd be a waste, so I'm going to be doing a few free games for a bit and then try out the low limit cash games, as I think I've forgotten what very little I had learned :P I'm also going to start re-reading brunson's chapter again, as I've forgotten most of that too.

Point of this post:

How lucrative is stud 8 online compared to say NL hold 'em, plo, etc? Is it much more of a grind?

One of the things I loved about stud 8, when I was playing back over the summer, and having not played a limit game ever before, was that I could barely lose anything, it's much more relaxed and comfortable, in my opinion, especially while playing on limited funds.

I remember one of the most amazing feelings was when I knew I'd be scooping the whole pot - it felt like flopping the nuts and having someone move in on you in hold 'em.

Edit: By the way, my name is Shmohawk on pstars.

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 06:30 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
I've found stud/8 to be more profitable for me than any other game I've played regularly (including LHE, LO8, and razz). People regularly make awful mistakes not just on every street, but multiple times per street.

(I've only played about 5k hands now though)

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 06:36 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
A note about pokerstars...

The ante is low so you can afford to be more patient with hand selection. Also, the BI is high relative to the SB so it's not correct to limp some of the more speculative hands and fold to a completion, the way it might be on full tilt (which has a bringin half the size of pokerstars, but a higher ante)

stud/8 has high implied odds in general because you can often find someone to jam with you on 5th-7th streets.

It also, for me, has much lower variance than any other game I've played. That probably changes as you move up but the loose games at lower stakes are pretty easy to make a good win rate with 30-40% lower standard deviation/100.

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 06:37 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
Oh and I'm swafjto on both PS and FTP.

Taso 12-01-2007 06:41 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
Thanks rusty, didn't realize there was a difference.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider to be a "speculative" hand in stud - or/and, whats the minimal hand you'd see 4th street with, in general? And am I correct in considering A23 suited to be the best starting hand?

Taso
(I'll try to find you on pstars, but I'm assuming you play higher than micro :P )

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 07:06 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
Nah, I play 1/2.

Find and read Ray Zee's book. Its good. Don't go overboard, though, his book assumes that your opponents have reasonable starting hand requirements, they definitely don't. PS is a good place to play because you get to see your opponent's cards in order, a big help in reading hands.

A23s is a fine hand but not the best, I don't think. I'd probably rather have 345s because it has more ways to make a high hand (it develops straight draws more often). Rolled up starters are good also, Ray Zees top hand group is 3 card low straight flush cards and rolled up hands. The *best* high hand is often quite good. The second best high hand with no chance for low is garbage.

My tight requirements are therefore things like:
* trips
* almost all 3 card 6s, many 3 card 7s, few 3 card 8s. For the 7s and 8s it's more likely I'll play if I can limp late without fear of a raise, and I prefer it if I have some reasonable straight or flush potential - I play any 3 card 8 that is also a 3 straight or 3 flush, and often will play a 2 straight or 2 flush, or 2str/2flush.
* aces with wheel kickers - these can develop into low hands and are almost always best on 3rd.
* high pairs - if they are likely to be the highest pair, an A has not already entered the pot, if I can raise and limit the field, and if I understand my opponents' tendencies - I dump KK all the time if conditions are not favorable. I raise TT if I think it's the best high hand and I can get the hand down to, say, a low draw and a worse high. Big pairs are sometimes better disguised, with a low door card, and sometimes better obvious, with a high door card.
* I play some small pairs, with small kickers, if there's a 2 flush or 2 straight, like 445 or 226 with a 2 flush, something like that. These are probably pretty marginal hands.

Playing more speculative hands, to me, means playing more rough 7s, a few more 8s, and more hands that are small pairs with a 8 or under kicker. I'm looking to make trips on 4th, or maybe a low 2 pair, or maybe pick up a low card, something like that. I might also limp some big pairs that I think might not be the best high hand. On pokerstars you can limp in for .25sb, so you're often getting like 10:1 or 12:1 on that call, and if you make big trips on 4th you can probably rake in some more dough, especially if you can sandwich losing highs and lows between you and the winning low, catching them for multiple bets.


The *biggest* consideration in hi/low is getting out of a hand early when you are not a favorite to win "your" side of the pot, and you are not drawing to the other side, either. This is not such a big deal if your opponents don't ram and jam the big streets, but if they do, drop it. Never forget that you are often playing for 1/2 the pot, so you are NOT getting the pot odds you might think you are. Be careful against people who might be freerolling you (they have one side locked up with a draw to beat the other side). Anyway, read Zee's book for way more info on that kind of thing. His book covers O8 also.

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 07:09 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
Oh, and Zee posts/reads here so if you have a question to ask him about his book, he might even answer you.

I also probably oversimplified a few things in my most recent response, so don't take any of that as gospel.

Alchemist 12-01-2007 07:15 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunetly, it seems like pstars doesn't have those nice little $2 stud 8 sitngo's that full tilt did - the minimum appears to be $5, which isn't much at all, but I feel like it'd be a waste

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW Stars has 16-person stud/8 turbo SnGs for $1.75. I suspect they may take a while to fill though.

Taso 12-01-2007 07:36 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
Thanks for the detailed post Rusty, just a few clarifying questionns/comments.

A23s vs 345s - That was the type of hand I thought might be better, I wasn't sure if the A-low made it a better startng hand or not. Thanks for answering.

By 3 card 6s, dooes the "s" mean 3 cards <6 that are suited? Or was it just a plural "6"?

What is a "rough" "x" ? Off suit? Unconnected?

As for the high hands, I thought I remembered reading somewhere that you shouldn't bother enterting a pot unless you have a chance to scoop it? Am I making that up?

Also, hand I just played: I had 234, got an A on 4th street. Is it 'generally' correct to play four cards to a good low hand aggressivly? I think I was unsuited.

Thanks again, and these questions aren't just for rusty, no need for me to burden him alone :P

Edit: also, should hands like A23 and 234 and 345 suited be played aggresivley before 4th street?

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 07:50 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
I was pretty sloppy with terminology above. Let me try a few clarifications.

A23sss (all one suit) vs 345sss - they have about the same chance to make a low. A23 will make better lows but that's not as important, imo, as the chance to make a straight for high.

By 3 card 6 I meant any 3 cards 6 or lower

A "rough" low is one where your 2nd card is not much lower than your 1st card, like 862 or 765.

You are correct about the desire to scoop. High hands CAN scoop though, since there is a qualifier for the low, sometimes there isn't one. And even when someone makes a low, it's worth staying in with a high if you have a very good chance of winning the high, because you can usually win 1/2 the pot but not put in 1/2 the chips. Note though that against 2 opponents, where you must split the pot, you are paying 1bb to win .5bb, so you must be VERY sure to win high. Also, heads up with an obvious high hand you can often win the pot on 4th or 5th when your opponent going low bricks.

At any rate, if you can guarantee or nearly gaurantee winning one side, there is no reason to fold, and no reason to try to eliminate opponents (unless eliminating them might make your chances of scooping larger)

Yes, you should play 4 low cards aggressively against multiple opponents especially in a case like that where you have a small chance to make a great high hand also. Without a made hand you'd probably prefer to get the other low draws out and play against the high hands (you want the other low draws out so you can win with 8432A or 7432A. You don't mind the high hands being in, because you don't have that much chance of winning if you make 1 pair, but a great chance of scooping with a wheel. You would try to knock opponents out that are going high if that increases your chances of winning if you catch one pair. Check out roggle's recent thread on collusion in this board - they forced him out when he had AA, which enabled 44 to win the high. And I think his fold was correct, there was too much chance that he'd get screwed.

Taso 12-01-2007 08:14 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
Okay, great, thanks for clarifying. I figured I should play those 4 low cards aggresively. It didn't work out for me either time, as it went miss-miss-miss both of the times I've been in that spot, whatevs, lol.

So, if anyone cares, I said "screw it" to the play money games, felt it was a waste of time, and I've been doing .10/.20, while reading through this thread inbetween hands. I'm playing bad/not hitting any cards and I'm down $8, but will carry on in hopes of improving. :P

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 08:17 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
I'm at your table, playing like an idiot.

Taso 12-01-2007 08:32 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
Darnit, I just left. I was getting really annoyed because I was in a hold 'em game with a good hand, and whenever I went to click "bet" or "call" or anything, the stud window would pop up asking me for my action, leaving me utterly confused and pissed off. I didn't realize you were there, my bad. (I'm currently in line for 2 nlhe games so I can make back some $$ and then go lose it again in stud :P)

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 08:36 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
 
I was 2 seats to your left. I did manage to make like 30bb though [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


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