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SGspecial 09-20-2007 03:01 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
Hey Taso, welcome to the stud forum.

Hope your stud/8 training has continued to go well. I can't offer you much advice on that game, but if you want to learn anything about any stud game this is a good place to start (oh, and listening to Ray is probly a good idea too).

p.s. it was fun playing with you at Brian's last night. I thought I recognized your name somehow. Maybe those guys will want to spread a HORSE cash game for variety some night.

Taso 09-20-2007 05:06 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
My actual playing has ended Dan, but I did just start reading Todd Brunson's chapter in Super System II, so I'm starting to get an idea of what I'm doing. I really do need to play it live, but that'll have to wait a while, short on cash now, but once I can you'll be the first that comes to mind.

Pleasure playing with you as well, you are a gentleman and a scholar, :P PM sent

Taso 12-01-2007 06:26 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
So I've started up again, bigger bankroll than my last attempt, and I'm at pokerstars now (couldn't deposit for like 6 months due to gaming restrictions with my bank). Unfortunetly, it seems like pstars doesn't have those nice little $2 stud 8 sitngo's that full tilt did - the minimum appears to be $5, which isn't much at all, but I feel like it'd be a waste, so I'm going to be doing a few free games for a bit and then try out the low limit cash games, as I think I've forgotten what very little I had learned :P I'm also going to start re-reading brunson's chapter again, as I've forgotten most of that too.

Point of this post:

How lucrative is stud 8 online compared to say NL hold 'em, plo, etc? Is it much more of a grind?

One of the things I loved about stud 8, when I was playing back over the summer, and having not played a limit game ever before, was that I could barely lose anything, it's much more relaxed and comfortable, in my opinion, especially while playing on limited funds.

I remember one of the most amazing feelings was when I knew I'd be scooping the whole pot - it felt like flopping the nuts and having someone move in on you in hold 'em.

Edit: By the way, my name is Shmohawk on pstars.

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 06:30 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
I've found stud/8 to be more profitable for me than any other game I've played regularly (including LHE, LO8, and razz). People regularly make awful mistakes not just on every street, but multiple times per street.

(I've only played about 5k hands now though)

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 06:36 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
A note about pokerstars...

The ante is low so you can afford to be more patient with hand selection. Also, the BI is high relative to the SB so it's not correct to limp some of the more speculative hands and fold to a completion, the way it might be on full tilt (which has a bringin half the size of pokerstars, but a higher ante)

stud/8 has high implied odds in general because you can often find someone to jam with you on 5th-7th streets.

It also, for me, has much lower variance than any other game I've played. That probably changes as you move up but the loose games at lower stakes are pretty easy to make a good win rate with 30-40% lower standard deviation/100.

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 06:37 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
Oh and I'm swafjto on both PS and FTP.

Taso 12-01-2007 06:41 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
Thanks rusty, didn't realize there was a difference.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider to be a "speculative" hand in stud - or/and, whats the minimal hand you'd see 4th street with, in general? And am I correct in considering A23 suited to be the best starting hand?

(I'll try to find you on pstars, but I'm assuming you play higher than micro :P )

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 07:06 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
Nah, I play 1/2.

Find and read Ray Zee's book. Its good. Don't go overboard, though, his book assumes that your opponents have reasonable starting hand requirements, they definitely don't. PS is a good place to play because you get to see your opponent's cards in order, a big help in reading hands.

A23s is a fine hand but not the best, I don't think. I'd probably rather have 345s because it has more ways to make a high hand (it develops straight draws more often). Rolled up starters are good also, Ray Zees top hand group is 3 card low straight flush cards and rolled up hands. The *best* high hand is often quite good. The second best high hand with no chance for low is garbage.

My tight requirements are therefore things like:
* trips
* almost all 3 card 6s, many 3 card 7s, few 3 card 8s. For the 7s and 8s it's more likely I'll play if I can limp late without fear of a raise, and I prefer it if I have some reasonable straight or flush potential - I play any 3 card 8 that is also a 3 straight or 3 flush, and often will play a 2 straight or 2 flush, or 2str/2flush.
* aces with wheel kickers - these can develop into low hands and are almost always best on 3rd.
* high pairs - if they are likely to be the highest pair, an A has not already entered the pot, if I can raise and limit the field, and if I understand my opponents' tendencies - I dump KK all the time if conditions are not favorable. I raise TT if I think it's the best high hand and I can get the hand down to, say, a low draw and a worse high. Big pairs are sometimes better disguised, with a low door card, and sometimes better obvious, with a high door card.
* I play some small pairs, with small kickers, if there's a 2 flush or 2 straight, like 445 or 226 with a 2 flush, something like that. These are probably pretty marginal hands.

Playing more speculative hands, to me, means playing more rough 7s, a few more 8s, and more hands that are small pairs with a 8 or under kicker. I'm looking to make trips on 4th, or maybe a low 2 pair, or maybe pick up a low card, something like that. I might also limp some big pairs that I think might not be the best high hand. On pokerstars you can limp in for .25sb, so you're often getting like 10:1 or 12:1 on that call, and if you make big trips on 4th you can probably rake in some more dough, especially if you can sandwich losing highs and lows between you and the winning low, catching them for multiple bets.

The *biggest* consideration in hi/low is getting out of a hand early when you are not a favorite to win "your" side of the pot, and you are not drawing to the other side, either. This is not such a big deal if your opponents don't ram and jam the big streets, but if they do, drop it. Never forget that you are often playing for 1/2 the pot, so you are NOT getting the pot odds you might think you are. Be careful against people who might be freerolling you (they have one side locked up with a draw to beat the other side). Anyway, read Zee's book for way more info on that kind of thing. His book covers O8 also.

RustyBrooks 12-01-2007 07:09 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
Oh, and Zee posts/reads here so if you have a question to ask him about his book, he might even answer you.

I also probably oversimplified a few things in my most recent response, so don't take any of that as gospel.

Alchemist 12-01-2007 07:15 PM

Re: Learning stud hi lo
Unfortunetly, it seems like pstars doesn't have those nice little $2 stud 8 sitngo's that full tilt did - the minimum appears to be $5, which isn't much at all, but I feel like it'd be a waste

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FWIW Stars has 16-person stud/8 turbo SnGs for $1.75. I suspect they may take a while to fill though.

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