Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

I think its time for a new thread, if not, feel free to lock this.

A lot of this is copy/pasted from Josem's last cliffnotes, so thanks Josem for those.

Previous thread here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

Short version:
There is almost indisputable proof that users at AP were cheating by somehow viewing the whole cards of their opponents. Some information has come out that indicates an AP employee or ex-employee may have been involved. There is further evidence that it may be ex-owner, Scott Tom.

Long version:

1) During a tournament played by cheater 'Potripper,' the person who ended up coming second ("Marco") thought he was cheated. He emailed Absolute, and they sent him a hand history file - an XLS file.

2) Marco opened up this file, it seemed all gibberish to him, and he didn't think anything of it.

3) First Absolute Poker scandal blow up - PT screenshots, etc. Graphical representation here: http://www.absolutepokercheats.com/vpipvbb.jpg

4) Fortnight passes

5) In passing discussion, Marco mentions he has this file. He shares it with a few people, including N 80 50 24(pokerdb.com maintainer, maker of The Poker Film, part owner of Bluff Media) who analyses what is in this file

6) Nat (N 80 50 24) & 2p2 poster Snagglepuss discover that this file is a complete hand history for the tournament - showing every table, and all hole cards of every player.

Hand histories here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0&fpart=1
Youtube video of hands being replayed here

[ QUOTE ]
Also, for the straight dope on how this we got to this point, check out N825024's blog at http://www.natarem.com/.

[/ QUOTE ]

7)In further analysis of the spreadsheet, Nat and Snagglepuss determine that the IP address, user number and email address of observers has been documented.

8)In 7, they determine that an account with user number 363 observes Potripper's table from 2 minutes into the tournament until the end.

9) At the start of the tournament, for the two hands that user #363 is not observing the table, Potripper folds preflop. He doesn't fold another hand pre-flop for 20minutes, when he open-folds with KK held by a player behind him.

10) They also discover another observer, with the same IP (in San Jose, Costa Rica), with a different user number and the email address scott@rivieraltd.com, observing another table for a short period of time.

11) It is speculated that 10 could be Potripper's user account.

12) It was determined that the domain rivieraltd.com was pointing to a mail server which happened to be on an IP allocated to Absolute Entertainment SA, at Mohawk Internet Technologies' data center.

12.5) Shortly (within an hour or two) after the findings in 12 are posted here, the DNS information for rivieraltd.com is deleted.

13)The IP associated with the observer in #10 turns out to be a residential cable modem registered to Scott Tom, AP's President as of 2005.

14)Mason weighs in on things here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1

15)Absolute sends an email to one player saying they will undergo a formal audit from gamingassociates.com here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1. AP also claims Scott Tom has not been employed by AP for over a year, although he's made posts on 2+2 spamming for AP as recently as June of this year.

16) Steven D. Levitt posts about this story on his NY Times blog for the second time:
First post
New post

10/17 update:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.

If I've missed anything important, let me know.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Awesome cliff notes...

Although, it involves a lot of clicking....you got all the main points !

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

nice job. The word is really spreading. Anyone know what's next?

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

wait, people try to cheat in poker?

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
wait, people try to cheat in poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this supposed to be funny? Can't we stop this already?

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

very nice, excellent for those of us who dont want to trawl through the other thread. ty

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
wait, people try to cheat in poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ban please!

Some of us are actually trying to keep up with this.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

13 1/2) The IP address that this 'other' account was logged in from was traced to the home cable modem of Scott Tom, CEO of Absolute poker. scott@rivieraltd.com is apparently the CEO, and is also possibly (not certain) POTRIPPER.

15 1/2) The email contained a claim by Absolute that Scott Tom has not been associated with AP for over a year.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

let's do this...

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

So what happens next? What action is taken against Scott Tom and how long has this been going on?

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Also, for the straight dope on how this we got to this point, check out N825024's blog at http://www.natarem.com/.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

13.5: I don't believe there is any proof that the scott@rivieraltd.com/363 IP belonged to Scott Tom. There is strong evidence that suggests it belongs to a residential cable modem in San Jose, but I don't know that we can assume any more then that at this point. It is believed to be Scott Tom because:

Rivieraltd.com was linked to AP.
The email address is Scott@.
Forum posts made by users believed to be Scott Tom have also been made from San Jose on this forum and casinomeister.com.

If I'm wrong about this I can update the OP.

15.5: I figured the email was worth reading so I just linked to it instead of trying to pick out a few points.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

If you guys have an account on digg, it wouldn't hurt to digg the blog story on the NYTimes. We need a bunch of diggs for it to make it to the front page.

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Abs...lown_Wide_Open

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, for the straight dope on how this we got to this point, check out N825024's blog at http://www.natarem.com/.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, I can't edit the OP anymore. Could a mod edit this link into it? Maybe after the link to the Youtube video?

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

good summary, I hope some more stuff comes out soon though because things seem to have slowed down recently (last 12-18 hrs or so). Maybe I'm just being a nit.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
13.5: I don't believe there is any proof that the scott@rivieraltd.com/363 IP belonged to Scott Tom. There is strong evidence that suggests it belongs to a residential cable modem in San Jose, but I don't know that we can assume any more then that at this point. It is believed to be Scott Tom because:


[/ QUOTE ]

The post from adanthar.

[ QUOTE ]
Exciting implications incoming:

If you guys remember, there were two people watching Potripper's table. One is #363; the other is assumed to be Potripper. That second account's email address is scott@rivieraltd.com.

I have talked to a lot of people around the poker world about the IP address used by #363 and the rivieraltd.com email. The IP address cross-references to someone named Scott Tom, who also appears to be an owner at AP. It should also be noted that the first part of the rivieraltd.com email is "scott@".

edited post to be clearer

[/ QUOTE ]

Because its Scott Tom's IP address.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Longest cliff notes ever. Nice job though.

Exactly why are these AP threads at BBV?

Edit: Also, the Freakonomics guy (Levitt) weighing in on this is pretty big, isn't it? He has a ton of readers, no doubt.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Yeah I read that but since I didn't understand how he knew that, I guess I kind of wrote it off as "evidence" instead of "fact."

And like I said, I can't edit the OP anymore [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
13.5: I don't believe there is any proof that the scott@rivieraltd.com/363 IP belonged to Scott Tom. There is strong evidence that suggests it belongs to a residential cable modem in San Jose, but I don't know that we can assume any more then that at this point. It is believed to be Scott Tom because:

Rivieraltd.com was linked to AP.
The email address is Scott@.
Forum posts made by users believed to be Scott Tom have also been made from San Jose on this forum and casinomeister.com.

[/ QUOTE ]

From Nate's blog:

[ QUOTE ]
2+2 moderator Adanthar found that the IP address was used by a 2+2 account with the login name scotttom.

[/ QUOTE ]

So there is a very direct link between account #363 and the name "Scott Tom".

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Longest cliff notes ever. Nice job though.

Exactly why are these AP threads at BBV?

[/ QUOTE ]
This has been posted in a lot of forums and in a lot of different places. It just seems that we (BBV) really took off with it, and now we are attracting other people in here. Just my observation.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Slightly updated to reflect the Scott Tom thing.

Also, stay tuned, more will certainly come out today.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
very nice, excellent for those of us who dont want to trawl through the other thread. ty

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

I dugg it

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Nice job, thanks. It's very hard to follow the drama when 100 posts a minute are being made.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

I might have missed it, but I'm curious about where Adanthar originally heard that #363 = Scott Tom. Is this person someone he trusts and has the IP address from the excel sheets been matched somewhere besides Adanthar's contact like from 2+2 posts.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

ammbo:
[ QUOTE ]

That letter from AP looks like a prelude to damage control. They distance themselves from Scott Tom (mentioning him by name) and go on to say there is no way anyone can see hole cards in real time.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing that bothers me about each statement AP makes is the possible evasiveness. They don't actually say that it's not possible to see the hole cards in real time. They just say that the game client won't let the players see cards they're not entitled to see. Also, they say there are no "superaccounts", but that could mean merely that there are no accounts with both playing privileges and card viewing privileges.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

has anyone else ever got an excel sheet like this from AP?

Particularly, anyone that has played graycat? If user 363 was also observing everytime graycat (or doubledrag) played, then that would be pretty damning.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
I might have missed it, but I'm curious about where Adanthar originally heard that #363 = Scott Tom. Is this person someone he trusts

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[ QUOTE ]
has the IP address from the excel sheets been matched somewhere besides Adanthar's contact like from 2+2 posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

not directly since that'd be damn near impossible to do. however, the watchdog was busy proving me right at CM yesterday (notice how he hasn't posted since I called him out?)

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

I would include the fact that AP looked into the matter, including the tournament that we now have the complete hand history for, and then released a statement saying that they found no evidence of cheating.

Either they are:

1. Dumber than my eight year old.
2. Assisting in the cover-up.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

maybe everyone who has played with graycat or doubledrag should request hand histories to see if they can get an excel file like this.

You'd think that absolute would have corrected whatever mistake caused them to send out the file -- but they are incompetent beyond belief.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

To answer somebody in the other thread, 2+2 does not advertise AP anyway so it's a non issue.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

dugg

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've requested HH's from the 1K tournies I've played at AP and gotten no response. They might be locking down the info.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Reguarding people asking if so called "superuser" accounts (in the last thread) exist on other sites, the unfortunate fact is all that is required is access to the right database with the right read permissions. you do not even need to be logged into said site per se. This is why the fact that the site was currently under monthly audits is so sad.

My suggestion to the community is to get nate or one of the other detectives and/or a vocal and popular poker spokesman to get on friggen CNN (and talk to that NYT reporter) and talk about the story, while pointing out this is one incident done by a criminal who started and built that particular company, excuse me, alledgedly( sp?!). Speaking on good points of other card rooms. And hopefully mentioning the fact the best way to stop this is to legalize poker in the States.

You really must get a proponent of poker on tv before the people who add spin and drama to it for their own profit get to it. This story will blow, it will be huge, it will get there eventually no matter what. It will be used against online poker. That is a fact.

However right now we hold the advantage...

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Here's a post by "jacktipper" from P5's. I'll preface it by saying that this user name just registered today:

Wow - how shady is this. Scott Tom isn't the CEO of AP, he's the CEO of the company that owns AP and UB. I for one know he's still involved with the company business of BOTH sites.

Keep in mind, the people that own this site are 20-somethings, who are rich, living in a country with no rules (Costa Rica)... I'm just surprised it's taken so long for someone to get caught.

So - how bad is it in AP's ***official*** release that they lie and try to coverup that Scott hasn't been a part of the company.

Wow...

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a post by "jacktipper" from P5's. I'll preface it by saying that this user name just registered today:

Wow - how shady is this. Scott Tom isn't the CEO of AP, he's the CEO of the company that owns AP and UB. I for one know he's still involved with the company business of BOTH sites.

Keep in mind, the people that own this site are 20-somethings, who are rich, living in a country with no rules (Costa Rica)... I'm just surprised it's taken so long for someone to get caught.

So - how bad is it in AP's ***official*** release that they lie and try to coverup that Scott hasn't been a part of the company.

Wow...

[/ QUOTE ]

this is very good if it can be proved

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.

[/ QUOTE ]
A confidential source told me that the guy is no longer with the company.

But maybe someone else is willing to send this stuff out.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Just skimming through the comments on the Freakonomics blog. I was both depressed by and encouraged by the number of people who are not convinced that cheating occurred. They may never be convinced, since it takes some thought and good poker knowledge to see it. This is depressing as anything that keeps people from seeing the truth is depressing. It's encouraging because I would hate to see a public overreaction that all online poker is rigged.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

54 diggs and counting...

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Abs...lown_Wide_Open