petition for the return of TE
 

Please sign below this petition requesting Mason issue an apology for banning TE for respectfully posting his opinion in the hopes that TE will return and revive the ghosttown that is now the Legislation forum.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please sign below this petition requesting Mason issue an apology for banning TE for respectfully posting his opinion in the hopes that TE will return and revive the ghosttown that is now the Legislation forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he want to return after the way he was treated?

Apology or not, no difference.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

TE is too good for this place, seriously. This whole forum is a freaking joke of nonsense. If you want to learn about legislation updates go visit pocketfives, pss, cardplayer - yeah I said it we know 2+2 nerds HATE cardplayer lol. This place is a sad joke and everyone knows it.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

This nonsense makes me all the happier that there are real alternatives to 2+2 nowadays. Makes me sad, though. I used to love this place fiercely.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

It would get really interesting if the other knowledgeable posters who really make this forum go, were to head over to the PPA boards.

IMO, that place would suddenly become the place "where everyone who is interested in poker legislation go."

I'd feel bad for Berge though, stuck here as a mod.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

When/why was he banned?

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[ QUOTE ]
When/why was he banned?

[/ QUOTE ]

He was suspended for 3 days for giving Mason a hard time about not commenting on the regs. Mason said he was unprofessional and disrespectful while in my view, he was just questioning him. I likened it to the disrespectful when a student questions a principal, not the definition of disrespectful between adults.

For all the hard work The Engineer does for the poker community FOR FREE, Mason is not very friendly towards him ever since he joined the PPA's board.

I am very turned off by the name twoplustwo now.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

"No good deed goes unpunished."
The Engineer volunteered countless hours to help us. I always felt he had the best interests of the players at heart and had no hidden agenda.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

I would be suprised if the following assertion is not true:

Mason has exerted more effort fighting The Engineer than he has fighting the UIGEA.

Les

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would be suprised if the following assertion is not true:

Mason has exerted more effort fighting The Engineer than he has fighting the UIGEA.

Les

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be shocked if it was true.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would be suprised if the following assertion is not true:

Mason has exerted more effort fighting The Engineer than he has fighting the UIGEA.

Les

[/ QUOTE ]


LesJ,

Please don't mischaracterize the true situation here. The Engineer is free *and welcomed and encouraged* to post here to fight the UIGEA as long as he 1) identifies himself as a board member of the PPA, and 2) exercises the professional decorum expected of same (which baiting and attacking Mason isn't).

Also you are asserting an implicit premise, which is fallaceous, that Mason/2p2 has an obligation to you and any/all posters to take some specific action or actions to fight the UIGEA. Mason has provided this forum and allows us to strategize and discuss tactical methods free of charge. Yet you seem to think you can demand other various actions of him.

So don't come here and try to spin this into something that isn't a truthful representation of the facts.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would be suprised if the following assertion is not true:

Mason has exerted more effort fighting The Engineer than he has fighting the UIGEA.

Les

[/ QUOTE ]


LesJ,

Please don't mischaracterize the true situation here. The Engineer is free *and welcomed and encouraged* to post here to fight the UIGEA as long as he 1) identifies himself as a board member of the PPA, and 2) exercises the professional decorum expected of same (which baiting and attacking Mason isn't).

Also you are asserting an implicit premise, which is fallaceous, that Mason/2p2 has an obligation to you and any/all posters to take some specific action or actions to fight the UIGEA. Mason has provided this forum and allows us to strategize and discuss tactical methods free of charge. Yet you seem to think you can demand other various actions of him.

So don't come here and try to spin this into something that isn't a truthful representation of the facts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bluff,

Which of the two have you HONESTLY spent more time on?

Fighting the PPA or Fighting UIGEA??

I think we all already know the answer to that, and that is one of the greatest reasons your arguments do not resonate with a greater number of people in this forum. You don't actually do anything. You just bitch about those that are.

Les

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

LesJ,

You can build all the strawmen and dangle all the red herrings you want, but that still doesn't make them valid. And if you really believe in your own strawman, then it only proves you don't think very well.

Here's a clue: fighting to make a better and more effective PPA is fighting the UIGEA.

And as I noted above, TE and the PPA are free to use these forums to urge posters to fight the UIGEA. They just aren't free to demand certain actions of Mason/2p2 or not conduct themselves in an open and professional manner. TE was doing this thing fine lately *until he felt it necessary to bait Mason and demand he take certain actions*, and *DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE PPA REFUSES TO ADDRESS LEGITIMATE ISSUES OF BOARD COMPOSITION AND TRANSPARENCY.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[ QUOTE ]
LesJ,

You can build all the strawmen and dangle all the red herrings you want, but that still doesn't make them valid. And if you really believe in your own strawman, then it only proves you don't think very well.

Here's a clue: fighting to make a better and more effective PPA is fighting the UIGEA.

And as I noted above, TE and the PPA are free to use these forums to urge posters to fight the UIGEA. They just aren't free to demand certain actions of Mason/2p2 or not conduct themselves in an open and professional manner. TE was doing this thing fine lately *until he felt it necessary to bait Mason and demand he take certain actions*, and *DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE PPA REFUSES TO ADDRESS LEGITIMATE ISSUES OF BOARD COMPOSITION AND TRANSPARENCY.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly the response I expected. Thanks for the verification.

Maybe I am ignorant, Bluff, but I didn't realize it had to be a zero-sum game for you. Surely as a poker player you are adept at multi-tasking. Are you saying that because you are critical of the PPA that you are somehow totally incapable of using any of your great talents to also fight the UIGEA? Maybe if you fought the regulations with the same ferocity that you fight the only organization that is working for us you would gain some credibility. Perhaps you would even win some people over to thought processes concerning the makeup of the Board of Directors. The only way the makeup of the Board will change is if the grass roots members of the PPA care enough to make it a priority. A couple of articulate, yet extremely INACTIVE naggers on an internet message board is not going to make it happen.

Les

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only way the makeup of the Board will change is if the grass roots members of the PPA care enough to make it a priority

[/ QUOTE ]


And the only way that will happen is if those grass roots members are made aware of why they should care, and see erroneous arguments to the contrary rebutted.

And here's a clue: I've written my fair share of letters to Congress and emails to corporations *despite the fact* that is mostly a waste of time with my specific legislators (think Foes of Fun And Damn the WTO All The Way).

You can keep up with the ad hominems and strawmen and such you want (lol at zero sum game), but the issues won't go away *unless* they are addressed by the board.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[x] would prefer this forum with regular participation of TE than without

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

Somehow pre-board appointment and post-board appointment has somehow made Engineer from a hard working guy fighting for our rights to a villian to some. What a shame

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

Ive not made him a villain and I don't think Bluff has. Theres more than meets the eye to the friction between the PPA and Mason. This is Mason's place and TE got snide with him. Poker like most of life is full of egos. No one wants him gone that Im aware of. I don't think begging is seemly at all. We aren't the ragged stepchildren wanting acceptance from the PPA. You can't just hang out a sign, hand some mney to Congress, and say you're the representatives of poker. Well, you can, but expect to be called on it.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would be suprised if the following assertion is not true:

Mason has exerted more effort fighting The Engineer than he has fighting the UIGEA.

Les

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be shocked if it was true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit - I completely mis read the original statement. I would agree with the statement you made [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] (thought you said Mason had exerted more effort fighting UIGEA than the engineer)

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

In the past month this forum has experienced a PPA- and TE-bashing free-for-all. When I first started lurking here a few months before UIGEA this was by far the most professional and informative forum I had seen. It got far, far better when TE began posting here. It has dropped significantly recently. Now there is only infighting, accusations, and whining about the PPA. Like it or not, PPA is the only game in town. They aren't perfect, but they are improving.

I hope TE returns, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he didn't. Just my $.02.

IndyFish

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Engineer is free *and welcomed and encouraged* to post here to fight the UIGEA as long as he 1) identifies himself as a board member of the PPA

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an internet forum, he can post anonymously if he likes, whether you approve or not

[ QUOTE ]
I hope TE returns, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he didn't

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see him as the type person who leaves something that can make a difference just because his feelings were hurt.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

signed.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Engineer is free *and welcomed and encouraged* to post here to fight the UIGEA as long as he 1) identifies himself as a board member of the PPA

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an internet forum, he can post anonymously if he likes, whether you approve or not

[ QUOTE ]
I hope TE returns, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he didn't

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see him as the type person who leaves something that can make a difference just because his feelings were hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps the premise of this thread is wrong.

If it was agreed to simply by mutual agreement for everyone to stop referring to personalities and possible human selfish motives in this exchange of ideas, myself included, then there would be no need for anyone to defend anything but their ideas.



D$D

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

Why does everything have to be about the friction b/w 2+2 and the PPA? I have posted several times in support of the positions against the PPA, but I also,wholehearted, support TE.The amount of effort and skill he has given freely to our cause has been tremendous and dwarfs all the efforts of the rest of our community, Mason's included, combined.

SIGNED

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps the premise of this thread is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

The premise is simple and intended to get enough people posting '+1' or 'signed' or something so that Mason will acknowledge his mistake and apologize. I don't know about TE but if I were to receive such an apology I'd certainly come back. Instead the thread became just another discussion vehicle. Oh well, I hear the PPA forum is picking up a bit recently, I'll be checking it out soon.

I am curious to get a numerical rather than anectdotal idea of how posters feel abot Mason's banning of TE for 3 days. Perhaps Mason is as well. Please vote.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

I'm still waiting on twoplustwo's lawyer to come back from vacation so he can give their statement on UIGEA.

Thank you for creating this forum so we can come together and argue about nothin and thank you to whoever invented english allowing us to fight the UIGEA.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

Enough

If people have problems with Mason's banning, please take it to ATF.

TE understands what he means to this community and I'm sure he appreciates all the support. Unfortunately, we are running around in circles like idiots at the moment.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

nit [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

Yes [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

All this petty bickering this week is driving me crazy. I know it is a slow period, but lordy.

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

All this petty bickering this week is driving me crazy. I know it is a slow period, but lordy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but, I would surmise it will remain 'slow' until.....

obg

Re: petition for the return of TE
 

First off, this is what I wrote in the other thread.

[ QUOTE ]
As for The Engineer, he needs to understand that posting here is a privledge and not a right. He cannot and it will not be tolerated for him to participate here in an un-respecful and non-professional manner. So to this end he now has been given a three day vacation. I know that some of you will be upset by this, but www.twoplustwo.com is our site and we will run it by the rules that we post and in which everyone, including myself, must abide by.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the way it will be. The three days are now up and if TE wants to post here again that decision will be his. This thread is now locked.

Mason Malmuth