Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)
 

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What is the difference between a "dearly held principle" and an "idea/opinion"?

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I started to post the difference but it felt condescending, so I deleted it. A principle is a value judgment made on moral or ethical grounds. An idea/ opinion doesn't necessarily involve a set of standards and can sometimes be quantifiable, whereas a principle cannot. Also,I didn't want to take this discussion in this direction here because it's really more appropriate for SMP don't you agree?

Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)
 

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What is the difference between a "dearly held principle" and an "idea/opinion"?

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I started to post the difference but it felt condescending, so I deleted it. A principle is a value judgment made on moral or ethical grounds. An idea/ opinion doesn't necessarily involve a set of standards and can sometimes be quantifiable, whereas a principle cannot. Also,I didn't want to take this discussion in this direction here because it's really more appropriate for SMP don't you agree?

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I agree it would derail things and is more appropriate for SMP or another thread but I will say this: I think that the overwhelming majority of ACist's here hold their opinions and idea's about property rights as extending from natural rights and do so on principle, or moral/ethical grounds. I could be wrong though.

Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)
 

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Can someone explain to me why the Republicans seem to be so rabid about the immigration issue?

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It is not just a Republican issue. Whenever I see a poll or discussion amongst Americans in general, the average Joe, either Repub or Democrat, wants the tide of illegals stopped.

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So much so, that the crowd was booing a national hero (McCain

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McCain is due tremendous respect whether you or I agree with his politics, but he is far from a national hero, imo. Wouldn't referring to "national heros" imply some sort of nationalism or patriotism that you don't adhere to anyways?

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The part from the debate that bugs me most is when the candidates try to use the phony argument that there are a bunch of "legal" immigrants lined up at the border, who can't get in because all the "illegals" sneaked in and "took their spots".

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I don't hear this argument much at all. I think it's more, "Why should an illegal who is breaking the law benefit immediately by side stepping the process, when a legal immigrant had to go thru the time and effort, legally, to gain lawful status."

The U.S. was founded on certain principles and has prospered under the work ethic, and pride of it's citizens. Approximately, 43 million men have served in the U.S. military in time of war, resulting in approximately 1.3 million deaths and another 1.5 million non mortally wounded to defend or promote those ideals. War Casualties

Not Mexicans, not Canadians, not Brazilians, or Nicaraguans, or Guatemalans.

I am quite sure Mexico and the other nations also have a rich national identity so why do they not give a rats ass about cultivating their own prosperity?

The American Identity will continue to exist only if the wave of Mexican, and Central American illegal immigration is brought under control. Unfortunately, the will power is not currently there, and you will not recognize the U.S. in 50 years if this trend continues. The invasion and voluntary forfeiture of U.S. national sovereignty will be well under way within that time.

Not to mention, by and large, the population of illegals are not educated. Great idea! Lets let in millions of people who are woefully uneducated and not willing to assimilate, whose children will vote in elections that will support politicians whose loyalties lie with Mexico and not the U.S. And in a few decades the South West U.S. will be Northern Mexico! Awesome! And the border didn't even move on the map!


It is statistical fact. Birth rates will dictate it all. This is not new news or hysterical reaction. It is what it is.


Whether you give a damn about it happening or not is the only question. I for one, would like to see the U.S. avoid becoming a Third World country.

Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)
 

In medieval times, the borders of maps were vague, scary places. Mapmakers drew in crazy monsters with one giant foot, or creatures with their heads in their chests, or, famously, the inscription "here there be dragons."

Even though we have TVs and cars now, the average American (and prob. the average citizen of another country) feels more or less the same about anywhere beyond the borders of the US. Immigrants are weird and unpleasant, China is scary, the Middle East is violent, etc., etc., etc. So, the average American's first response to any problem (terrorism, losing a job, prices going up, wages going down, some cats getting poisoned) is, "Hey, we brought this on ourselves by getting involved with these dragons/Blemmyae/foreigners and look where it got us! We need to curtail immigration/"do something about China"/protect American industry." A recent poll found that two thirds of Americans felt that globalization had hurt America. (!!!!!!!)

Electoral logic demands that both parties cater to this provincial ignorance, and they do. Republicans want to cater to the racists and the law-and-order types, so they bang the anti-immigration drum. Dems want to cater to unions and bleeding hearts, so they bang the foreign-trade-is-bad drum. The root cause is the same: the common man is dumb about economics.

Incidentally, this is why Ron Paul's position on trade is so bad. He may want even more radical free trade policies than we have (and be right to want them), but what about the next guy? If he's elected by Americans, he's likely to be anti-trade. That's why institutional checks on Americans' ability to screw up our economy (e.g., NAFTA, WTO) are so good.

Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)
 

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Just to confirm: illegal (excuse me dennis kucinich, undocumented) immigrants pay taxes? Is that a fact, jack?

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They certainly pay sales taxes when they buy things. Illegal immigrants who are assigned fake SS #s by their employers are also paying payroll taxes and aren't be eligible to collect any of the benefits.

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What about real estate taxes? School taxes, etc? And any idea how many illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes?

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This is not really correct. A large percentage of illegals are paying payroll taxes on perfectly legitimate SSNs. Unfortunately, they are using the SSNs of their "anchor babies". It is not unusual at all for an 18 month old child to be making several hundred grand a year and paying taxes on all of it because his father and several of his uncles are working on his social security card. These kids will have their Social Security and unemployment benefits maxed before they ever work a day. Of course, taxes are taxes, and no politician or bureaucrat is going to get real excited about ending the practice. It's really just part of the way illegals have learned to game the system.

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Then they must be pretty dumb at games:

Furrner 1: Lets all use baby Furrner's SSN and pay taxes on $1 million a year.

Furrner 2: Yeah, we'll max out baby Furrner's benefits in a year.

Baby Furrner, when he gets to age 70: Dear SSA, What do you mean my benefit is $36k a year, Ive been paying taxes of $120,000 a year since I was 3?

SSA: Dear Baby Furrner, you are entitled to a refund of excess Social Security taxes withheld by multiple employers. Please refile your Federal Income taxes for the last 7 years to claim a refund.

Baby Furrner: What do you mean 7 years? Ive been paying too much for 63 years.

SSA: Statute of limitations, FTW.

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You completely missed the point. It has nothing to do with taxes and benefits and everything to do with gaining access to stable good paying jobs. I have no doubt that when the time comes to pay these benefits the government will suddenly wise up and declare them forfeit.