97 in the sb
 

30/60 bellagio

mp open raises. i call in the sb with 97s with the 2/3 structure. some lady that just sat down recently 3-bets in the bb. mp calls. i call.

flop: 744

i bet. bb calls. mp calls.

turn: 7
i bet. bb calls. mp raises. i call. bb calls.

river: 3

i bet. bb calls. mp raises. i call.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

Nice hand!

Re: 97 in the sb
 

Yes, well done.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

Yes, beautifully done. Do you fold pre with 15-30 blind structure

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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Yes, beautifully done. Do you fold pre with 15-30 blind structure

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Most 15-30 is 2/3.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

I mean 30-60 game, 15-30 blinds.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

Now Chris this is just bragging :P

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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I mean 30-60 game, 15-30 blinds.

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Same story.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

A+. Would read again.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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Now Chris this is just bragging :P

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Truth. You know you played this perfectly.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

VNH, except for preflop.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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VNH, except for preflop.

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too nitty imo

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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VNH, except for preflop.

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too nitty imo

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Are you on drugs?

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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VNH, except for preflop.

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too nitty imo

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Are you on drugs?

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granted BB is unknown, but folding here getting likely 4.2/1?? if BB calls, 5.2/1? (assuming raiser Cbets the flop). if raiser does not hold an overpair its not a good fold, and even if so, a marginal fold.

this is a standard call in the pink chip game if i have a good read on the raiser. If the raiser is a nit or I have no reads, then i fold.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

Easy call from SB, Ilovepoker obviously doesn't know how to play limit poker.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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Easy call from SB, Ilovepoker obviously doesn't know how to play limit poker.

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The idea that this is an easy call is ridiculous. The 2nd part of your statement may be true.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

Why does everyone's reply have to be "And it isn't even close" every single time? Is any decision ever marginal?

Put me in the "I go both ways" camp.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

Well Ilovepoker I may be dumb but I love 97s in this spot, for me its easy.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

Ghost bumper in Mid? But why this thread? hrmm.....

Re: 97 in the sb
 

I didn't read this thread the first time, but why does everyone love this hand so much? Preflop is a fold, flop lead is fine, but just about any line is fine with this hand on the flop.

On both turn and river, I don't feel we have a good enough read to not 3-bet.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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Ghost bumper in Mid? But why this thread? hrmm.....



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that was me. I was stoving it to try to show that I didn't like our equity, but I screwed up the stoving, and decided to just hit the sack instead of redoing it. I'll try again with this hand later today probably.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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On both turn and river, I don't feel we have a good enough read to not 3-bet.

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BB is drawing to 2 outs, on the turn MP's raise looks like a chop or spew and at this level would be capable of folding the bottom of his range to a 3-bet. Calling + leading the river keeps the near-dead hands in the pot to keep calling single bets.

On the river MP has quads or chopping or is really retarded.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ghost bumper in Mid? But why this thread? hrmm.....



[/ QUOTE ]

that was me. I was stoving it to try to show that I didn't like our equity, but I screwed up the stoving, and decided to just hit the sack instead of redoing it. I'll try again with this hand later today probably.

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Snowball, at what point of the hand were you trying to stove?

Re: 97 in the sb
 

joetall,

preflop obv. I think it's a fold. We're OOP with dubious equity.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
joetall,

preflop obv. I think it's a fold. We're OOP with dubious equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is that we are at 27%, which is just enough to call in a 2/3. It's actually a "doesn't matter", pure variance decision, IMO.

I'll be right back, gona stove.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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On both turn and river, I don't feel we have a good enough read to not 3-bet.

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The point is to get BB to overcall and chop his monies.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
joetall,

preflop obv. I think it's a fold. We're OOP with dubious equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.511% { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Hand 1: 28.365% { 97s }
Hand 2: 27.125% { random }

But I guess we should consider the BB folding some hands:


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.729% { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Hand 1: 26.626% { 97s }
Hand 2: 33.645% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q3s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }


So, I was a little light on the Defend/raise side, but this is NoCal poker which is Asian poker, so, maybe not!

It's real close, FWIW I call with 98s here for sure:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.382% { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Hand 1: 27.356% { 98s }
Hand 2: 33.262% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q3s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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On both turn and river, I don't feel we have a good enough read to not 3-bet.

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The point is to get BB to overcall and chop his monies.

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DUCY?

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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DUCY?

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Sorry, I'm a newb. What does this mean?

Re: 97 in the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
DUCY?

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Sorry, I'm a newb. What does this mean?

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i believe DUCY means "Do you see why?"

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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[ QUOTE ]
joetall,

preflop obv. I think it's a fold. We're OOP with dubious equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.511% { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Hand 1: 28.365% { 97s }
Hand 2: 27.125% { random }

But I guess we should consider the BB folding some hands:


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.729% { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Hand 1: 26.626% { 97s }
Hand 2: 33.645% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q3s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }


So, I was a little light on the Defend/raise side, but this is NoCal poker which is Asian poker, so, maybe not!

It's real close, FWIW I call with 98s here for sure:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.382% { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Hand 1: 27.356% { 98s }
Hand 2: 33.262% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q3s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }

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Joe who is very Tall,

I think your ranges are too wide bordering on waaay to wide. The raise was MP in a full ring and we are not told the villian was a lagtard. Only you will be jacking up T8s and K6s and A7o. Redo your homework and come back to class prepared, kthx.

results
 

wow completely forgot about this thread, but i remember this hand.

i call the river. bb overcalls as well. bb has KK, mp had 44 for quads.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]


Joe who is very Tall,

I think your ranges are too wide bordering on waaay to wide. The raise was MP in a full ring and we are not told the villian was a lagtard. Only you will be jacking up T8s and K6s and A7o. Redo your homework and come back to class prepared, kthx.

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Doc who surfs,

As you see from the results, MP had 44, and I left 44 OUT of my range.

Come back to my school anytime,
Joe who is Tall

For the record I was lazy and used the PStove slider, so there may be a few on there that MP doesnt raise but I'm sure I can replace those hands with ones he likely does, enough to make the equity ranges near the same.

Re: results
 

I don't see how getting a tiny showdown edge by calling with 9s7s can be correct, unless of course, we are actually going all in!

We are OOP!

We cannot expect to play perfectly or even close When the flop comes J95 rainbow, will we really know what to do after a c-bet. These simulations don't measure the cost of being OOP.

Fold this crappy hand unless raiser is quite nearly raising on any 2 cards

I'm not so sure 98s is playable in this spot either. Calling 4 chips OOP is about like calling 6 chips in good position. I tend to call raises in the 2 chip small blind as if I were making a decision to call a non-raised pot from the button.

The BB is another matter. Calling half a bet instead of two-thirds of a bet is a big difference. You also know what the SB did. In the SB you might get re-raised by the BB. I still won't play trashy stuff like 97off or Q7s for 3-way action, but 97s is easily good enough for me.


Jim

Re: 97 in the sb
 

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Joe who is very Tall,

I think your ranges are too wide bordering on waaay to wide. The raise was MP in a full ring and we are not told the villian was a lagtard. Only you will be jacking up T8s and K6s and A7o. Redo your homework and come back to class prepared, kthx.

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Doc who surfs,

As you see from the results, MP had 44, and I left 44 OUT of my range.

Come back to my school anytime,
Joe who is Tall

For the record I was lazy and used the PStove slider, so there may be a few on there that MP doesnt raise but I'm sure I can replace those hands with ones he likely does, enough to make the equity ranges near the same.

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Joe who is very Tall AND very results oriented,

I don't think post hoc analysis of what he had is a reasonable argument to justify what the predicted range of an unknown player is. Many players overvalue small pairs yet don't play as many hands as listed in your stove.

As far as this being a clear call I really don't agree but I am intrigued by trending 2p2 line of thinking that all we need to do is have reasonable stove equity and we get to play. The implication is that we can ignore position and use our superior postflop skill to get involved. I think Jim Morgan does a pretty good job detailing how we won't get to realize out stove equity.

I may some visit your school but can't stay long since there aren't any waves. That, and the fact that I pretty much maxed out on how much school one person is allowed to attend.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

I agree with jim and surf about the pre flop decision and would fold 97s from the sb against an MP raiser

I would consider playing 98s, but only with a read on BB and MP

post flop is wp

Re: 97 in the sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't read this thread the first time, but why does everyone love this hand so much? Preflop is a fold, flop lead is fine, but just about any line is fine with this hand on the flop.

On both turn and river, I don't feel we have a good enough read to not 3-bet.

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pf easy fold, ugh. Flop lead is super donkey IMO, I hate it.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

flop lead is not donkish at all, we want to give BB the opportunity to knock out MP, we gain more info by betting than by checking and we also don't run the risk to see the action get back to us for 2 cold when we could have the best hand

Re: 97 in the sb
 

I would argue that the flop donk here will give you way, way less info than a simple c/r or even c/c would. Lots of people hate these types of donks and will raise and keep firing with simple overcards because they hate to give up their lead while in position and hate to be bluffed and simply hate people who don't "respect" their PF action. Or maybe its just me.

Re: 97 in the sb
 

I would agree with you if it were a HU pot or if BB had merely called pre flop instead of 3-bet

but with this pre flop action I like a flop lead much better than a check