Re: 25-50 hand vs Diablo
 

call

muck

move on

Re: 25-50 hand vs Diablo
 

The biggest issue that you aren't addressing, Jason, is why you're betting this turn? You're either doing it for value or doing it so Diablo doesn't pick up a 6 outer with overs, correct? In regards to getting value, all you will be making money from is 88 and 99, right? And that's only if El D decides to take his 99/88 all the way to river (is it fair to assume that you will quite often double barrel turn/river with the a turn check-call?). El D is also forced to semi-bluff ai or fold this turn with a heart draw (leaning to an ai with two heart overs and maybe leaning to a fold with one heart over? This is just another assumption...). With this turn bet, it just seems like you are forcing a good hand reader to make an even more accurate play against you (even with the knowledge that you will quite often float a flop with this texture). Obviously, by checking this turn you are making it fairly well known that you are trying to get to showdown, because you would so often follow your float with a turn bet, that checking only states that you do indeed like your hand and that you're probably going to call a river bet. This obviously gives El D a lot of power in terms of when to VB and when to CC or CF, but I still believe that checking this turn, even with a player like you and you're history with El D, is superior with your specific holding of TT. I think with QQ/JJ it's much closer to a bet. I'm also curious about what you'd do with 88/99 on this turn, also? If you are betting with TT here, you must be betting those, too, no?

Re: 25-50 hand vs Diablo
 

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Except for a vague reference by El Diablo, not one poster quibbled with the pot size turn bet. In spite of the fact that any basic analysis would say that in most cases the bet should be either signifcantly smaller or an outright check.

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David, while checking back on the turn is certainly a viable option, making a "significantly smaller" bet is not in my opinion. Varying bet sizes to be able to fold if raised against players of Diablo's caliber is a recipe for disaster. Jason's play may have left him with quite a quandary on the river, but betting small would really be a very weak play in my opinion.

Jason, since your river decision becomes so difficult here (I really don't know Diablo's game well enough to recommend a river call/fold decision), I think checking back on the turn would have been better.

Re: 25-50 hand vs Diablo
 

ha i remember this post.

i wonder if diablo still thinks strasser is "good for the game."

Re: 25-50 hand vs Diablo
 

Here are some thoughts from a MSNLer, so take them for what they're worth. Feel free to tear it up.

[ QUOTE ]
A smaller bet could be check called by a draw. Thats ok, but.. You arent allowing a draw to then play incorrect poker.

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As an earlier poster mentioned, betting pot isn't going to accomplish this either. He's more or less being forced to raise/fold.

You mention this later and say that you want him to c/r ai with his draws. I disagree because you are encouraging him to balance his hand range more correctly against your specific hand. He can throw a lot of draws in there with overpairs before he is going overboard. He might not even have enough draw combos here to allow him to be semibluffing too often.

Betting smaller gives him more incentive to call rather than semibluff. Weaker made hands will mostly just call. It will prevent him from drawing free. It will also most likely prevent him from bluffing lots of scare cards that can fall on the river for a hand that checks behind. All for cheaper. The obv downside is that it creates new balancing issues.

I still think checking is best, though.

Re: 25-50 hand vs Diablo
 

I don't often bump old threads, but I am at my uncles house and in between my day and nightly activities in the holy land I get rather bored. I was looking through old threads after reading the Limon thread and wanted to see a clear example of a way that the game has changed, although maybe not "evolved" recently.

These days, when a good HSNL regular bets that turn (specifically, when he POTS the turn), he is generally not doing so without a plan of action for what to do if the villain repot shoves. I think if this hand were posted now, most people would be saying a few things.

1) Don't pot the turn unless you are snap calling a shove.

2) Don't pot the turn at all, betting 900 is superior.

I think 2 is very much a product of the fact that ppl don't really play on ub anymore though.

Also, I think the stackadonk line has been used so often, perhaps overused, that diablo (or whoever else if they were in his spot) would be more likely these days to bet the turn again.

Re: 25-50 hand vs Diablo
 

Yea, I'm pretty sure I would be checking this turn a lot, if I got there the way Jason did. If I did bet it, it would be because "well, he'll never put me on a hand since I flatted the flop my hand is near the top of my range, and he'll CR all in very liberally with a FD or with a pair and a straight draw or something since his line will look so strong." But I'd really need a read to do something like that, and bet folding it kind of sucks IMO for the reasons I just mentioned.

I'm trying to think of how I feel about raising the flop and calling a shove, I remember this one from back in the day.

Good thoughts though obv Ansky.

Re: 25-50 hand vs Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
call

muck

move on

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 25-50 hand vs Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think the stackadonk line has been used so often, perhaps overused, that diablo (or whoever else if they were in his spot) would be more likely these days to bet the turn again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. The added effect of being able to double barrel because you also fire turns with strong hands generally outweighs the possible "inside a vaccuum" more optimal play of stackadonk when playing against regulars all the time.

The "merge your range" thing also kind of applies which is kind of funny because Strassa is such a huge advocate of it. Like on this turn I would think its standard to be firing behind with your bluffs (floats) and your strong slowplayed hands while checking behind the medium strength hands (comparably) like TT... but Strassa merrrrrrged!

Re: 25-50 hand vs Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think the stackadonk line has been used so often, perhaps overused, that diablo (or whoever else if they were in his spot) would be more likely these days to bet the turn again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. The added effect of being able to double barrel because you also fire turns with strong hands generally outweighs the possible "inside a vaccuum" more optimal play of stackadonk when playing against regulars all the time.

The "merge your range" thing also kind of applies which is kind of funny because Strassa is such a huge advocate of it. Like on this turn I would think its standard to be firing behind with your bluffs (floats) and your strong slowplayed hands while checking behind the medium strength hands (comparably) like TT... but Strassa merrrrrrged!

[/ QUOTE ]

yea, the stackadonk line is more obvious and used more in the current state of poker, but that doesn't mean that that it would be less likely to be used here in an isolated instance imo. i think it could be argued that people would be more likely to use it because people float more and more nowadays as opposed to when this hand took place(i think).

so checking kk here will yield a higher expectation than betting if strassas flop range is primarily floats and 1 pair hands(which he will probably fold most of the time unless our 2 barrel frequency is fairly high or we have a bunch of recent aggressive history). of course at this point everything becomes really flow dependent and vs. an observant opponent like strassa you can't just take one line all the time, and without knowing how aggressive/passive diablo & strassa play vs. each other in spots like this it's really hard to comment on 1 hand like this.

on another note this is one of the first posts i ever read on 2p2 and it's really cool to come back a year or something later and understand why it was played the way it was, while when i first read it i was confused why people wanted to fold a pair higher than every card on the board. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]