FTPNL60: Can I fold KK preflop when 240BB deep?
 

I thought this might actually be worth discussing considering the stack sizes. Just recently sat down at the table so no real reads but this is the first hand villian has raised out of the 18 we have played.

Full Tilt Poker, $0.15/$0.30 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players

Hero (CO): $71.55
BTN: $12.30
SB: $46.55
BB: $51
UTG: $119.75
MP: $54.45

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG calls $0.30, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.50</font>, BTN calls $1.50, SB calls $1.35, 2 folds, <font color="red">UTG raises to $5.70</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $20</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">UTG raises to $119.75 and is All-In</font>, Hero ???

Re: FTPNL60: Can I fold KK preflop when 240BB deep?
 

Hardly without reads.

Re: FTPNL60: Can I fold KK preflop when 240BB deep?
 

Let me add to this post, even though it's post-flop this time:

Hero (UTG): $24.50
MP: $49.95
CO: $30
BTN: $12.10
SB: $83.90
BB: $35.85

CO posts $0.30
Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to $0.90, MP calls $0.90, 4 folds

Flop: ($2.55) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $1.50, MP raises to $49.05 and is All-In

MP is aggressive and has pushed me off some hands, but never with an AI. I've won some smaller pots off him. I'm stuck in this session, unable to get much going and not displaying any great poker play. Can I fold here?

Re: FTPNL60: Can I fold KK preflop when 240BB deep?
 

should really have your own thread for that

Re: FTPNL60: Can I fold KK preflop when 240BB deep?
 

I'm going to get crucified for this because I'm going completely against the fray....

But...

As far as I concerned, 5betting pf range at this level is quite different from 3bet/4betting range: it's like a tattoo on his head saying AA.

You're paying about 35% for 10.8% equity.

Without SERIOUS reads I'm folding.

There, I said it.

Re: FTPNL60: Can I fold KK preflop when 240BB deep?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let me add to this post, even though it's post-flop this time:

Hero (UTG): $24.50
MP: $49.95
CO: $30
BTN: $12.10
SB: $83.90
BB: $35.85

CO posts $0.30
Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to $0.90, MP calls $0.90, 4 folds

Flop: ($2.55) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $1.50, MP raises to $49.05 and is All-In

MP is aggressive and has pushed me off some hands, but never with an AI. I've won some smaller pots off him. I'm stuck in this session, unable to get much going and not displaying any great poker play. Can I fold here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't mind 3betting AI on flop w this hand. I hate calling.

Fold this. I think your cheaply getting away from a set who's shot himself in the foot through fear of draws. Whats the point in him playing pps pf if he's going to do this? A medium sized rr here and he's probably got your stack.

Re: FTPNL60: Can I fold KK preflop when 240BB deep?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this might actually be worth discussing considering the stack sizes. Just recently sat down at the table so no real reads but this is the first hand villian has raised out of the 18 we have played.

Full Tilt Poker, $0.15/$0.30 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players

Hero (CO): $71.55
BTN: $12.30
SB: $46.55
BB: $51
UTG: $119.75
MP: $54.45

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG calls $0.30, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.50</font>, BTN calls $1.50, SB calls $1.35, 2 folds, <font color="red">UTG raises to $5.70</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $20</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">UTG raises to $119.75 and is All-In</font>, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say don't play the deep tables if you can't get this all in preflop. Sure, there could be some circumstances where you actually do have a read on a guy that could make this a close decision. But 18 hands isn't enough for me and I've seen plenty of people do this with all kinds of crap on the deep tables. If he has AA, make a note about it and move on.

Re: FTPNL60: Can I fold KK preflop when 240BB deep?
 

People generally dont 5bet without AA at NL50 imo. But with no reads its hard to fold. Any kind of PT stats would help here.

Re: FTPNL60: Can I fold KK preflop when 240BB deep?
 

The play at Nl30 is so pants, i'd snap call esp after you've invested 20$.

Second Kk hand i'd 3bet shove aswell.

Re: FTPNL60: Can I fold KK preflop when 240BB deep?
 

[ QUOTE ]
People generally dont 5bet without AA at NL50 imo. But with no reads its hard to fold. Any kind of PT stats would help here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with Hennerz and another poster that said the same. My experience at NL50 on FTP is that this is screaming AA and I've rarely been disappointed here (or I should say they've rarely been disappointed when I've paid them off).

Too many chances for this guy to call or bail on this hand not to have AA.

Also, if you read any of Phil Gordon's books, he's a big proponent of the rule that "The fourth raise is always Aces" (preflop). Especially deepstacked.