Two Plus Two Newer Archives - Fun flop decision.

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Fun flop decision.

The table is interesting. UTG is a complete imbecile: over a bit more than 400 hands, he's running 51/9 preflop and 1.7 postflop. He's also losing money at about $1 per hand, so he's not exactly doing a great job of it. The rest of the table is made up of decently good players with TAG or sLAG stats, and all of us are gunning for the guy on my right. Of course, I've got the best position in the house....

I sat down at the table fifteen minutes ago. I've gotten involved in very few hands. I've been caught stealing once in a blind-vs-blind situation but I only lost a little cash in the process. I haven't been involved in any serious shakeups yet.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $115.10
BB: $135.50
UTG: $104.65
Pokey (MP): $104.45
CO: $105.50
BTN: $104.40

Preflop: Pokey is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG raises to $2.00, Pokey calls $2.00, CO calls $2.00, 3 folds

People aren't really reraising much on this table, and I've got great implied odds if I hit. I'll dump it to a three-bet if it comes, but sometimes you've got to gamble to win, right?

Flop: ($7.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
UTG checks, Pokey bets $4.00, CO raises to $17.00, UTG raises all-in to $102.65, Pokey has a decision to make.

The preflop raiser checks, so I make a smallish bet to try and build a pot and disguise my hand for if-and-when I hit. CO (a decent TAG who runs 18/13 preflop and has a postflop aggression of nearly 5) makes a nearly pot-sized reraise to $17. UTG now wakes up and check-REraises all-in. It's almost $100 to me, the pot has almost $130 in it, I'm all-in if I call, and there's still a player to act behind me who also has me covered. Fun, fun!

So, what say you: is calling +EV, -EV, or about even?

Re: Fun flop decision.

I raise over the min-raise preflop.

call.

Re: Fun flop decision.

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I raise over the min-raise preflop.

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Yeah, but you also reraise A9o in the big blind after CO raises, button calls, and SB calls, so I tend to think that your preflop reraising strategy is a bit lighter than mine. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Fun flop decision.

stove anyone? worst case, we're up against a set. I stick it in here with the two draws. OverP? 2P? I love this hand.

Re: Fun flop decision.

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I raise over the min-raise preflop.

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why? i doubt we have any fold equity against a 51/9, we have position, and we don't mind playing a multi-way pot w/our hand.

as as for the hand, i did a quick poker stove.
-hand 1 is UTG, hand 2 is CO.
-i entered hands for the CO which he might call a shove with. in reality, i think his calling range is narrower than the one I gave

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.188% 42.06% 03.12% 276523 20533.33 { Ad7d }
Hand 1: 13.927% 13.43% 00.50% 88268 3285.33 { TT+, KdQd }
Hand 2: 40.885% 37.76% 03.12% 248241 20533.33 { 77-44, 9d8d, 87s, 76s, 64s+, 54s }

so basically we have good equity against UTGs range, but it's closer against COs range because sets are more likely, as a 7s (being part of several combo draws in which case we're playing for 1/2 the pot.

like i said, i did this real quick, it's not perfect.

Re: Fun flop decision.

pf is fine, I don't want to bloat the pot too much, don't think it's worth the isolation (the only reason behind raising)

callings def +EV, so that's what i do. Bet more on the flop for value.

Re: Fun flop decision.

Assuming 99+, KQd for UTG, I don't care what CO has. Even if he has a set, with all the "dead" money in there that belongs to UTG, I'm calling this all day, everyday. Simply too many outs to not call, imo.

Re: Fun flop decision.

I'd probably bet more on the flop, and I turbo call after UTG shoves. You win either way -- either all-in in a 3way pot with the NFD and an OESD where you are getting the right pot odds even against a range of 44-66,87 for both players, or CO folds and you get all-in with plenty of equity vs. UTG's much wider range.

Re: Fun flop decision.

I don't think this is even close tbh.

Re: Fun flop decision.

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I'd probably bet more on the flop, and I turbo call after UTG shoves. You win either way -- either all-in in a 3way pot with the NFD and an OESD where you are getting the right pot odds even against a range of 44-66,87 for both players, or CO folds and you get all-in with plenty of equity vs. UTG's much wider range.

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Flop is fine I think, it's a blocking/potbuilding bet. I agree with the rest of your post.

Re: Fun flop decision.

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I've gotten involved in very few hands.

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You know, this part I really don't understand. I was sitting at one of these tables the other day, I had position on a total retard, so I was playing like 40% of my hands, variety of raises and calls, and everyone else was folding. WTF? So I drain the guy and off I go. Were you just completely card dead, or being a nit? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Fun flop decision.

easy call off.

if CO wasn't in the hand it would be close.

Re: Fun flop decision.

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easy call off.

if CO wasn't in the hand it would be close.

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If CO wasn't in the hand, you'd still snap call this...what possibly could make this "close"?

Re: Fun flop decision.

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I've gotten involved in very few hands.

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You know, this part I really don't understand. I was sitting at one of these tables the other day, I had position on a total retard, so I was playing like 40% of my hands, variety of raises and calls, and everyone else was folding. WTF? So I drain the guy and off I go. Were you just completely card dead, or being a nit? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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So many times recently I've been at tables like this where the other multitabling regs don't adjust at all to the ATM sitting at the table. They just keep folding too much or isolating the wrong player by 3betting the donkey out of the pot.

Re: Fun flop decision.

Pf is spot on, definitely not reraising with A7, maybe AT+. Bet more on flop as you want to get money in the pot. Call allin.

Re: Fun flop decision.

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I've gotten involved in very few hands.

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You know, this part I really don't understand. I was sitting at one of these tables the other day, I had position on a total retard, so I was playing like 40% of my hands, variety of raises and calls, and everyone else was folding. WTF? So I drain the guy and off I go. Were you just completely card dead, or being a nit? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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So many times recently I've been at tables like this where the other multitabling regs don't adjust at all to the ATM sitting at the table. They just keep folding too much or isolating the wrong player by 3betting the donkey out of the pot.

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Yeah that pissed me off at another table, some idiot keeps squeezing to try to win $4. Guess everyone else is HUDbotting. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Fun flop decision.

Preflop is call or fold...

Flop is bit more difficult. If we knew we were up against a straight then we're folding cos we likely only have our flush outs left to win and so a call is only breakeven if we can triple up. If they both have set/2P/draws then its an easy call.

Also if I call here CO is going to assume he is at least up against a set by either hero or UTG. I think CO is folding any overpair/2P hands here and calling only with a set or str8 (could be a bad assumption at this limit but hero would have just called a huge 3 bet on the flop with TAG still to act). Without knowing that COs money is in the pot, I think I fold. Im happy to call if CO was already in the pot hoping that Im up against anything but a str8 (ie any combo of sets,2P, TP+draw combo)

BTW I love this hand.

Re: Fun flop decision.

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Without knowing that COs money is in the pot, I think I fold.

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Nah, UTG's range is huge and we are at least breakeven against it. What's 18 outs twice again?

Re: Fun flop decision.

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Without knowing that COs money is in the pot, I think I fold.

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Nah, UTG's range is huge and we are at least breakeven against it. What's 18 outs twice again?

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Well, Im actually finding it hard to figure out what his likely range is. He is loose but doesnt raise too much preflop (maybe any pair, AT+ from UTG). And he is a bit passive post flop but with a flop this coordinated even a passive player would bet a lot of one pair type hands I think. Maybe he has a big pair or a set that he feels he doesnt need to protect until he sees a bit of action behind him. Of course being a donk he probably doent actually think at all.

BTW I am actually thinking this may be a call on further reflection but I am interested to know if the majority of people want to see CO call or not.