Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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Humans are humans, by definition they are perfect, as a group, and in a general sense individually.

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If I'm perfect, the the hell can't I remember where I put my [censored] car keys!

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That's the nature of a perfect human. Some entity with an infallible memory would be a very different species than a human, we construct our memories as we go.

luckyme

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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Is our existence pointless and random without God? Yeah, I think it is.

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Without intention, it is per se, you don't have to 'think' that it is. If you fling a 6 deck shoe of cards out a 10 story window, and on the ground you see that 40 or 50 cards have, by outrageous chance, formed a little house of cards, does that house of cards have any purpose or a point?

The mystery to me is - where they hell did the cards come from? Will we ever know for certain?

I think most people have some kind of feeling, or 'sense' that existence is not pointless. What ever this 'feeling' is, it has manifested itself through the eons as 'faith' in something 'behind' existence, informing existence. Of course humans being what they are, imperfect, have used this faith, like fire, to varying degrees of both good and bad ends.

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Humans may very well have this "sense," whatever it is. I just have no reason why you'd think that means anything. Humans have a sense that objects moving towards them are dangerous until proven otherwise. This is a survival mechanism, and it is often wrong. Humans have a sense that those blotchy eraser marks on the chalkboard kind of look like a man's face. This is because facial recognition, as part of our general pattern recognition, is very important. But the eraser marks are NOT a face. IOW, human beings have a whole lot of senses that are just adaptations, general rules of thumb that are often wrong but that solve certain types of problems.

It takes very little imagination to think of reasons we might all have a sense that we are fundamentally important in the universe.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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does anyone else find it illogical to assert either
1. there definetely is a god
2. there definetely isn't a god
both seem easily debunked with just a few simple questions.

One thing is for certain, whether we believe there is a god or there isn't, the world and universe continue to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can say "there definitely isn't God X" depending on the characteristics ascribed to God X. If he is a logical contradiction, it makes sense to say he definitely does not exist. But I think it is obviously stupid to say "any type of god cannot possibly exist." And of course, no one says this. Some people sloppily or lazily say "LOL God doesn't exist dummy" or something like that in response to some monotheist, but they PROBABLY just mean "no reason to think God exists and only a fool takes a policy of believing in things UNTIL they are proven false." Sort of like how I say unicorns don't exist, ya know? I'm not positive of this. It would be idiotic to claim that unicorns definitely don't exist. But I don't feel the slightest bit remorseful when I say it.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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Is our existence pointless and random without God? Yeah, I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without intention, it is per se, you don't have to 'think' that it is. If you fling a 6 deck shoe of cards out a 10 story window, and on the ground you see that 40 or 50 cards have, by outrageous chance, formed a little house of cards, does that house of cards have any purpose or a point?

The mystery to me is - where they hell did the cards come from? Will we ever know for certain?

I think most people have some kind of feeling, or 'sense' that existence is not pointless. What ever this 'feeling' is, it has manifested itself through the eons as 'faith' in something 'behind' existence, informing existence. Of course humans being what they are, imperfect, have used this faith, like fire, to varying degrees of both good and bad ends.

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Humans may very well have this "sense," whatever it is. I just have no reason why you'd think that means anything. Humans have a sense that objects moving towards them are dangerous until proven otherwise. This is a survival mechanism, and it is often wrong. Humans have a sense that those blotchy eraser marks on the chalkboard kind of look like a man's face. This is because facial recognition, as part of our general pattern recognition, is very important. But the eraser marks are NOT a face. IOW, human beings have a whole lot of senses that are just adaptations, general rules of thumb that are often wrong but that solve certain types of problems.

It takes very little imagination to think of reasons we might all have a sense that we are fundamentally important in the universe.

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I don't recall stating that I thought it 'meant' something. However, while I'm also inclined to think that it is probably just adaptation with regard to evolutionary biology, I'm not prepared to say I'm certain of it.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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Is our existence pointless and random without God? Yeah, I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without intention, it is per se, you don't have to 'think' that it is. If you fling a 6 deck shoe of cards out a 10 story window, and on the ground you see that 40 or 50 cards have, by outrageous chance, formed a little house of cards, does that house of cards have any purpose or a point?

The mystery to me is - where they hell did the cards come from? Will we ever know for certain?

I think most people have some kind of feeling, or 'sense' that existence is not pointless. What ever this 'feeling' is, it has manifested itself through the eons as 'faith' in something 'behind' existence, informing existence. Of course humans being what they are, imperfect, have used this faith, like fire, to varying degrees of both good and bad ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humans may very well have this "sense," whatever it is. I just have no reason why you'd think that means anything. Humans have a sense that objects moving towards them are dangerous until proven otherwise. This is a survival mechanism, and it is often wrong. Humans have a sense that those blotchy eraser marks on the chalkboard kind of look like a man's face. This is because facial recognition, as part of our general pattern recognition, is very important. But the eraser marks are NOT a face. IOW, human beings have a whole lot of senses that are just adaptations, general rules of thumb that are often wrong but that solve certain types of problems.

It takes very little imagination to think of reasons we might all have a sense that we are fundamentally important in the universe.

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I don't recall stating that I thought it 'meant' something. However, while I'm also inclined to think that it is probably just adaptation with regard to evolutionary biology, I'm not prepared to say I'm certain of it.

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I didn't say you did. If we are going to be nitty, I just said I don't understand why you WOULD say that. If you did. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] But I was making a more general point that arguments from obviousness or whatever the opposite of the argument from incredulity (and actually its just a different form of the argument from incredulity) are very common and very fallacious. Many people will take your observation and then conclude that this "sense" or "feeling" cant just be random and that it must mean something. Which of course it probably does, just not what they want it to.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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Is our existence pointless and random without God? Yeah, I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without intention, it is per se, you don't have to 'think' that it is. If you fling a 6 deck shoe of cards out a 10 story window, and on the ground you see that 40 or 50 cards have, by outrageous chance, formed a little house of cards, does that house of cards have any purpose or a point?

The mystery to me is - where they hell did the cards come from? Will we ever know for certain?

I think most people have some kind of feeling, or 'sense' that existence is not pointless. What ever this 'feeling' is, it has manifested itself through the eons as 'faith' in something 'behind' existence, informing existence. Of course humans being what they are, imperfect, have used this faith, like fire, to varying degrees of both good and bad ends.

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Humans may very well have this "sense," whatever it is. I just have no reason why you'd think that means anything. Humans have a sense that objects moving towards them are dangerous until proven otherwise. This is a survival mechanism, and it is often wrong. Humans have a sense that those blotchy eraser marks on the chalkboard kind of look like a man's face. This is because facial recognition, as part of our general pattern recognition, is very important. But the eraser marks are NOT a face. IOW, human beings have a whole lot of senses that are just adaptations, general rules of thumb that are often wrong but that solve certain types of problems.

It takes very little imagination to think of reasons we might all have a sense that we are fundamentally important in the universe.

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I don't recall stating that I thought it 'meant' something. However, while I'm also inclined to think that it is probably just adaptation with regard to evolutionary biology, I'm not prepared to say I'm certain of it.

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I didn't say you did. If we are going to be nitty, I just said I don't understand why you WOULD say that. If you did. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] But I was making a more general point that arguments from obviousness or whatever the opposite of the argument from incredulity (and actually its just a different form of the argument from incredulity) are very common and very fallacious. Many people will take your observation and then conclude that this "sense" or "feeling" cant just be random and that it must mean something. Which of course it probably does, just not what they want it to.

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OK. I'm just sensitive because it seems, sometimes, the 'strawman tactic' is a favorite of some of the various interlocutors on here!

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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does anyone else find it illogical to assert either
1. there definetely is a god
2. there definetely isn't a god
both seem easily debunked with just a few simple questions.

One thing is for certain, whether we believe there is a god or there isn't, the world and universe continue to exist.

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If God exists, he cannot exist within the realm of human logic. it leads to a bunch of questions like "where did God from" that have to be answered by shrugging your shoulders. Also, the God that humans believe in is essentially a human himself. So if you make the statement "God can exist, but we cannot understand him anymore than a new born child understands quantum physics" then what is the point of even acknowledging his existence? it doesn't matter either way.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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I think you can say "there definitely isn't God X" depending on the characteristics ascribed to God X. If he is a logical contradiction, it makes sense to say he definitely does not exist. But I think it is obviously stupid to say "any type of god cannot possibly exist." And of course, no one says this. Some people sloppily or lazily say "LOL God doesn't exist dummy" or something like that in response to some monotheist, but they PROBABLY just mean "no reason to think God exists and only a fool takes a policy of believing in things UNTIL they are proven false." Sort of like how I say unicorns don't exist, ya know? I'm not positive of this. It would be idiotic to claim that unicorns definitely don't exist. But I don't feel the slightest bit remorseful when I say it.

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thanks for the feedback man.

So atheism isnt necessarily the belief that there is no god? By that, do you mean atheism is a result of the creation of these god x's ie. christian god, muslim god, etc. and is simply the rejection of those beliefs? Would that by definition make a muslim an athiest of the christian god? And if so, what would you call someone who believes there is/are no god(s)?

I ask these questions because i am genuinely trying to understand, not because i'm trying to passive agressively attack what you said. I am 20 yrs old so im still wet behind the ears. Please forgive any flaws in my logic and feel free to correct any of them.

Also i think the unicorn analogy maybe off (im sure it came from off the top of your head.) As a human I can feel, taste, see, smell, and hear the universe and know it exists. I draw the conclusion, from the fact that the universe exists, that something created the universe. I come to this conclusion based on my experience that every and anything i have encountered in the universe is an effect of some cause, be it man, force, or w/e.

I think stone henge is a perfect example of what i am trying to say. People speculate many different theories on who or what constructed it (and they'll probably never know exactly) but they can draw the conclusion that some force that existed/exists constructed it. They can draw this conclusion from the mere fact that it exists.

Correct away, scorcher863

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Basically atheists don't believe in god(s).

There is some room for slightly different interpretations, some say there are 'weak atheists' (not in a bad way) who believe 'there probably isn't a god' and strong atheists who say 'there is no god' (sometimes called militant atheists when they aggressively push their views).

To confuse it further you have agnostics who would say 'there may be/not be a god, but I can't know for sure' who are often confused with weak atheists. This shouldn't be done because religious believers can also be agnostics - so it is broader concept.

Also you got some semantic issues - most atheists would not refer to their reasoning as 'belief there is no god', they would call 'having no belief there is a god', this point is often important to them as they don't want to come of as 'believers' in something.

Apart from that you will in discussions on this forum hear claims about other stuff atheists believe/don't believe/do/don't do, and that's all just plain old BS. Atheists have no bible, no same agenda and neither do they all have to be logical, reasoning materalists who only believe in rationality.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

thanks for explaining that to me. So as an example, would that make jhawk a weak atheist (sorry to single you out) according to this statement [ QUOTE ]
But I think it is obviously stupid to say "any type of god cannot possibly exist."

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Also could you explain how a person could be religious and agnostic at the same time? It seems like one says there definetely is a god (or else whats the point of being religious) and one says i cannot draw any conclusion.

Forgive me again if my logic is off

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

An agnostic theist would simply say 'I believe there definitely is a god, but I can't know'. Not all accept that this is a possible belief (some theists would claim the person is doubtful of god, militant atheists would call his belief irrational).

In very short and very simplified way agnosticism is the rejection of belief in absolute truths, based on the conclusion that as of yet there are certain things you simply can't know. Agnostic theists who take this belief to heart would claim there are things you can believe, even if you can't know them.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

http://www.howtocheatinphotoshop.com...copy2-copy.jpg

edit: rabble rabble rabble rabble religion rabble rabble atheism rabble rabble rabble fifty pages of [censored] rabble rabble

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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Is our existence pointless and random without God? Yeah, I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without intention, it is per se, you don't have to 'think' that it is. If you fling a 6 deck shoe of cards out a 10 story window, and on the ground you see that 40 or 50 cards have, by outrageous chance, formed a little house of cards, does that house of cards have any purpose or a point?

The mystery to me is - where they hell did the cards come from? Will we ever know for certain?

I think most people have some kind of feeling, or 'sense' that existence is not pointless. What ever this 'feeling' is, it has manifested itself through the eons as 'faith' in something 'behind' existence, informing existence. Of course humans being what they are, imperfect, have used this faith, like fire, to varying degrees of both good and bad ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humans may very well have this "sense," whatever it is. I just have no reason why you'd think that means anything. Humans have a sense that objects moving towards them are dangerous until proven otherwise. This is a survival mechanism, and it is often wrong. Humans have a sense that those blotchy eraser marks on the chalkboard kind of look like a man's face. This is because facial recognition, as part of our general pattern recognition, is very important. But the eraser marks are NOT a face. IOW, human beings have a whole lot of senses that are just adaptations, general rules of thumb that are often wrong but that solve certain types of problems.

It takes very little imagination to think of reasons we might all have a sense that we are fundamentally important in the universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall stating that I thought it 'meant' something. However, while I'm also inclined to think that it is probably just adaptation with regard to evolutionary biology, I'm not prepared to say I'm certain of it.

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I didn't say you did. If we are going to be nitty, I just said I don't understand why you WOULD say that. If you did. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] But I was making a more general point that arguments from obviousness or whatever the opposite of the argument from incredulity (and actually its just a different form of the argument from incredulity) are very common and very fallacious. Many people will take your observation and then conclude that this "sense" or "feeling" cant just be random and that it must mean something. Which of course it probably does, just not what they want it to.

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OK. I'm just sensitive because it seems, sometimes, the 'strawman tactic' is a favorite of some of the various interlocutors on here!

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I'm not going to claim I'm never guilty of it, but I'd like to think that when I do it it is a result of an honest misunderstanding. It is sometimes difficult to get tone and intent across on an internet message board, and I am sometimes left to guess at what someone REALLY means. Which I then base on past experience and that sometimes leads to error.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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I think you can say "there definitely isn't God X" depending on the characteristics ascribed to God X. If he is a logical contradiction, it makes sense to say he definitely does not exist. But I think it is obviously stupid to say "any type of god cannot possibly exist." And of course, no one says this. Some people sloppily or lazily say "LOL God doesn't exist dummy" or something like that in response to some monotheist, but they PROBABLY just mean "no reason to think God exists and only a fool takes a policy of believing in things UNTIL they are proven false." Sort of like how I say unicorns don't exist, ya know? I'm not positive of this. It would be idiotic to claim that unicorns definitely don't exist. But I don't feel the slightest bit remorseful when I say it.

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thanks for the feedback man.

So atheism isnt necessarily the belief that there is no god? By that, do you mean atheism is a result of the creation of these god x's ie. christian god, muslim god, etc. and is simply the rejection of those beliefs? Would that by definition make a muslim an athiest of the christian god? And if so, what would you call someone who believes there is/are no god(s)?

I ask these questions because i am genuinely trying to understand, not because i'm trying to passive agressively attack what you said. I am 20 yrs old so im still wet behind the ears. Please forgive any flaws in my logic and feel free to correct any of them.

Also i think the unicorn analogy maybe off (im sure it came from off the top of your head.) As a human I can feel, taste, see, smell, and hear the universe and know it exists. I draw the conclusion, from the fact that the universe exists, that something created the universe. I come to this conclusion based on my experience that every and anything i have encountered in the universe is an effect of some cause, be it man, force, or w/e.

I think stone henge is a perfect example of what i am trying to say. People speculate many different theories on who or what constructed it (and they'll probably never know exactly) but they can draw the conclusion that some force that existed/exists constructed it. They can draw this conclusion from the mere fact that it exists.

Correct away, scorcher863

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Ok, you are asking all the right questions, and you are already ahead of the game because you don't pretend like you know all the answers to questions that have been asked and remain contentious for hundreds (and hundreds) of years. All good things. Atheism, in the strictest sense, is simply a LACK of a belief in God. It is not necessarily a firm, confident positive claim that no God could ever exist. For instance, I think it is certainly POSSIBLE for an infinite number of possible Gods to exist. And I think its impossible for us to ever find out one way or another. This makes me agnostic, of course, but it ALSO makes me an atheist. The two are not mutually exclusive. The type of atheist you are referring to above, the one who has a firm belief in the impossibility or non-existence of god, is a gnostic atheist. Gnostic simply means "one who knows" or something very similar to that. I am agnostic because I do not know and furthermore think that we cannot know. The cannot part isn't strictly necessary, and so I am agnostic on a whole host of topics. I am agnostic about unicorns, to keep the same example running. I do not have a belief that they exist, but I cannot say they are impossible. I am an agnostic a-unicornist.

You make a good point about the difference between atheism and a-unicornism. That is, basically, only little girls believe in unicorns. A whole bunch of people believe in God. And you hit the nail right on the head for why this is. God seems to answer a lot of questions and fill a lot of needs. Just as, for the little girl, the unicorn answers some questions and fills some needs, i.e. the need for some magical, beautiful wonderful creature to exist. Once the little girl gets over this need, or finds something else to fill it, she can accept the overwhelming likelihood that these unicorns do not exist. This cannot be PROVEN, of course, but it doesn't seem worth devoting much time to worrying about it.

Your stonehenge question is sort of a rephrasing of Paley's watchmaker problem. You walk along a beach and you see a watch, you don't know who owns the watch but you know damn well that some intelligent force made that watch. Its a fascinating problem. For most of human history, we've considered human beings, dogs, plants, all of these to be different examples of the watch. It was simply impossible to look at a human being, with all its complexity, and think that there was no intelligent designer. But it turns out we were wrong. There really is no intelligent designer. A great amount of complexity CAN arise out of mindless processes. Darwin more or less solved that for us, and although it is STILL incredibly counterintuitive to most people, something as amazing and complex and beautiful as a human being really did come about through random mutations differentially selected and inherited.

How does this apply to your specific question about the beauty of the universe? Well, the short answer is that it doesn't. The universe is still awaiting its Darwin. Maybe its Darwin will never come. Maybe the universe really IS a watch. I do not know for sure. What I learned from the parable of evolution (awesome, LOL) is that my wonderment and my lack of imagination and my "sense" that something must be designed or here for a reason misleads. It is imperfect. It exists for a reason, and that reason is to get me safely through childhood, into adulthood and eventually to parenthood. I do not have this sense as some sort of Ultimate Truth Divining Rod. It is fallible and fallible in predictable ways.

Of course, if you want to listen to all that and then still say that the universe still IS a watch, I have no convincing arguments to sway you. You might even be right. There are some atheists who will say, with far too much confidence, that the universe is here for no reason and that it had no beginning or some other explanation. As far as I know, they are more or less making things up. I think they'd be better off saying "I don't know but past experience has led me to refrain from just making up stories and calling them God."

And of course, going from this potential watchmaker god, who created the universe, to some sort of God that cares about who I marry or what I do on Sundays or intends to send me to burn for eternity is a HUGE step based on nothing. Absolutely nothing. That the universe appears designed is NO ARGUMENT WHATSOEVER for any specific designer. Its not even a great argument for a designer of ANY stripe.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

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thanks for explaining that to me. So as an example, would that make jhawk a weak atheist (sorry to single you out) according to this statement [ QUOTE ]
But I think it is obviously stupid to say "any type of god cannot possibly exist."

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Also could you explain how a person could be religious and agnostic at the same time? It seems like one says there definetely is a god (or else whats the point of being religious) and one says i cannot draw any conclusion.

Forgive me again if my logic is off

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Yeah, I am a weak atheist, or another way of saying it is agnostic atheist. An agnostic theist is someone who thinks there is a god but does not know for sure and thinks that it is probably impossible to know for sure. This isn't QUITE the same thing as someone who knows there is "something" but just doesn't have any particular religion. That person isn't really agnostic, they are a full-fledged theist, they just are a-religious or non-sectarian or something. I know a few agnostic theists but most people, in the US at least, are gnostic theists.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

we care so much because its the oldest philosophical debate.
reason vs unreason
knowledge vs faith
we care so much because its on everyones mind, thrust into the foreground by geopolitical events.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, you are asking all the right questions, and you are already ahead of the game because you don't pretend like you know all the answers to questions that have been asked and remain contentious for hundreds (and hundreds) of years. All good things. Atheism, in the strictest sense, is simply a LACK of a belief in God. It is not necessarily a firm, confident positive claim that no God could ever exist. For instance, I think it is certainly POSSIBLE for an infinite number of possible Gods to exist. And I think its impossible for us to ever find out one way or another. This makes me agnostic, of course, but it ALSO makes me an atheist. The two are not mutually exclusive. The type of atheist you are referring to above, the one who has a firm belief in the impossibility or non-existence of god, is a gnostic atheist. Gnostic simply means "one who knows" or something very similar to that. I am agnostic because I do not know and furthermore think that we cannot know. The cannot part isn't strictly necessary, and so I am agnostic on a whole host of topics. I am agnostic about unicorns, to keep the same example running. I do not have a belief that they exist, but I cannot say they are impossible. I am an agnostic a-unicornist.

You make a good point about the difference between atheism and a-unicornism. That is, basically, only little girls believe in unicorns. A whole bunch of people believe in God. And you hit the nail right on the head for why this is. God seems to answer a lot of questions and fill a lot of needs. Just as, for the little girl, the unicorn answers some questions and fills some needs, i.e. the need for some magical, beautiful wonderful creature to exist. Once the little girl gets over this need, or finds something else to fill it, she can accept the overwhelming likelihood that these unicorns do not exist. This cannot be PROVEN, of course, but it doesn't seem worth devoting much time to worrying about it.

Your stonehenge question is sort of a rephrasing of Paley's watchmaker problem. You walk along a beach and you see a watch, you don't know who owns the watch but you know damn well that some intelligent force made that watch. Its a fascinating problem. For most of human history, we've considered human beings, dogs, plants, all of these to be different examples of the watch. It was simply impossible to look at a human being, with all its complexity, and think that there was no intelligent designer. But it turns out we were wrong. There really is no intelligent designer. A great amount of complexity CAN arise out of mindless processes. Darwin more or less solved that for us, and although it is STILL incredibly counterintuitive to most people, something as amazing and complex and beautiful as a human being really did come about through random mutations differentially selected and inherited.

How does this apply to your specific question about the beauty of the universe? Well, the short answer is that it doesn't. The universe is still awaiting its Darwin. Maybe its Darwin will never come. Maybe the universe really IS a watch. I do not know for sure. What I learned from the parable of evolution (awesome, LOL) is that my wonderment and my lack of imagination and my "sense" that something must be designed or here for a reason misleads. It is imperfect. It exists for a reason, and that reason is to get me safely through childhood, into adulthood and eventually to parenthood. I do not have this sense as some sort of Ultimate Truth Divining Rod. It is fallible and fallible in predictable ways.

Of course, if you want to listen to all that and then still say that the universe still IS a watch, I have no convincing arguments to sway you. You might even be right. There are some atheists who will say, with far too much confidence, that the universe is here for no reason and that it had no beginning or some other explanation. As far as I know, they are more or less making things up. I think they'd be better off saying "I don't know but past experience has led me to refrain from just making up stories and calling them God."

And of course, going from this potential watchmaker god, who created the universe, to some sort of God that cares about who I marry or what I do on Sundays or intends to send me to burn for eternity is a HUGE step based on nothing. Absolutely nothing. That the universe appears designed is NO ARGUMENT WHATSOEVER for any specific designer. Its not even a great argument for a designer of ANY stripe.

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I just wanted to say this is a sick awesome post and I will not be posting in SMP about religion/atheism anymore because this covers everything. Seriously. gg.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Thanks vhawk, i appreciate all the valuable information. It helped me to better understand my beliefs. I feel like i should pay you lol.
Your teaching style is extremely effective, especially the a-unicornism analogy. At first, an agnostic theist seemed like a contradiction. Now, i think i understand how the two are not mutually exclusive (its funny cause i just learned this concept a few weeks ago in intro to statistics and was just tested wednesday on it.)
Prior to reading this post, i was under the presumption that all atheists are the same and they believe there is no god. I think it's obvious i was only exposed to one side of the story. Thanks again for the clarification.

I heard of the watch analogy while listening to an audiobook of Mere Christianity. C.S. Lewis uses a house and a painting as examples. I like stone henge becauseit is a real life example.

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What I learned from the parable of evolution (awesome, LOL) is that my wonderment and my lack of imagination and my "sense" that something must be designed or here for a reason misleads. It is imperfect. It exists for a reason, and that reason is to get me safely through childhood, into adulthood and eventually to parenthood. I do not have this sense as some sort of Ultimate Truth Divining Rod. It is fallible and fallible in predictable ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would explain why C.S. lewis came up with the idea that because we "thirst" for a god, there must be a god that exists (based on our thirst for water and food.)

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to some sort of God that cares about who I marry or what I do on Sundays or intends to send me to burn for eternity is a HUGE step based on nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is reminds me alot of ppl nowadays. It's kinda like on of those chicken/egg/ conundrums, they have these beliefs which are drawn from their god, who is affected by their beliefs, which are affected by their god and so on and so on.

Thanks again for the lengthy response. I read it over a few times so i would grasp everything.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also you got some semantic issues - most atheists would not refer to their reasoning as 'belief there is no god', they would call 'having no belief there is a god', this point is often important to them as they don't want to come of as 'believers' in something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly, i think this is the common belief among otherwise ignorant people. Usually you hear the word atheist used (in a negative connotation) as some kind of anti-religion. I now understand that atheism isn't the opposite of religion, it's more like the abscence of religion. Thanks for the wisdom dueces.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

It's quite ridiculous to see atheists telling theists what theists believe. God forbid that people, yes theists too, actually think and think differently about things.

Just a question. How many of you (meaning luckyme, vhawk, midge, chrisv, whoever) have read any of the following:

1. Dynamics of Faith by Paul Tillich
2. On Religion: Speeches to its Cultured Despisers by Friedrich Schleiermacher
3. The Divine Milieu by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
4. The Kingdom of God is Within You by Leo Tolstoy
5. Philosophical Fragments by Soren Kierkegaard

I will list more if desired.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's quite ridiculous to see atheists telling theists what theists believe. God forbid that people, yes theists too, actually think and think differently about things.

Just a question. How many of you (meaning luckyme, vhawk, midge, chrisv, whoever) have read any of the following:

1. Dynamics of Faith by Paul Tillich
2. On Religion: Speeches to its Cultured Despisers by Friedrich Schleiermacher
3. The Divine Milieu by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
4. The Kingdom of God is Within You by Leo Tolstoy
5. Philosophical Fragments by Soren Kierkegaard

I will list more if desired.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I've made any grand point about what theists believe. I've tried to explain what theism IS, and I think I'm just as qualified to talk about that as a theist. It is impossible to come up with some set of things that all theists believe, save for one: theism. After that, their beliefs are unique and not really related to the theism at all. I will make some claims about what INDIVIDUAL theists believe, people who call themselves Christians, for example, but I'm often surprised to find out the things that people believe while still calling themselves Christian. At least for Christianity, there is a theoretically "correct" set of beliefs that being a Christian implies. Of course its vanishingly unlikely that any actual Christian has all of those beliefs.

In short, I'm more than happy to meet the theist on his terms wrt his beliefs. I don't really care WHAT they are, he can present them to me and I'll argue them on their own merits.

Can you give an example of who these atheists are that you are angry with, and an example of when they told theists what they believe?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Schmitty -

[ QUOTE ]
5. Philosophical Fragments by Soren Kierkegaard

[/ QUOTE ]

Ship it! I'm an atheist, but I agree that the modern predominance of atheism in the intellectual community can make atheists unjustifiably dismissive of theists.

Anyone who starts to imagine that theism is "simplistic" or "unsophisticated" should just read Dostoevsky for a couple years straight. Thanks for the other book recommendations, I will look into them.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

I sometimes make generalizations about "the theists," when I'm referring primarily to fundamentalists. It's sloppy, fair enough. I think I've done better since returning to the forum, but I'll still slip up sometimes.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's quite ridiculous to see atheists telling theists what theists believe. God forbid that people, yes theists too, actually think and think differently about things.

Just a question. How many of you (meaning luckyme, vhawk, midge, chrisv, whoever) have read any of the following:

1. Dynamics of Faith by Paul Tillich
2. On Religion: Speeches to its Cultured Despisers by Friedrich Schleiermacher
3. The Divine Milieu by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
4. The Kingdom of God is Within You by Leo Tolstoy
5. Philosophical Fragments by Soren Kierkegaard

I will list more if desired.

[/ QUOTE ]


Even more ridiculous, for obvious reasons, are theists telling other theists what theists believe. no?

For me, a theist is somebody who believes there is an intervening god(s), details to follow. On this forum, the range is some version of god being a ham sandwich or love, or very selective or vengeful or whatever serves the posters psyche. In many cases the details are rather irrelevant, in the same sense that the details of the space ship that they adducted me in would be.

What were you hoping would come out of reading your book list? That theists can't agree about the nature of god? heck, we can learn that walking around the neighborhood.

luckyme

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

It's quite ridiculous to see atheists telling theists what theists believe. God forbid that people, yes theists too, actually think and think differently about things.

Exactly. I just posted the mathematical perspectives of 2 Trinitarian math people, but probably no one read them here since I haven't heard any forum comments on them.

http://www.math.sfu.ca/~jrg/scripts/godandmath_1.pdf

http://www.frame-poythress.org/poyth...4Creation.html

The second article is by Vern Poythress. He earned a B.S. in mathematics from California Institute of Technology (1966), where he was a Putnam fellow in 1964, and a Ph.D. in mathematics from Harvard University (1970). He studied linguistics and Bible translation at the Summer Institute of Linguistics at the University of Oklahoma in 1971 and 1972, and he enrolled at Westminster Theological Seminary, earning an M.Div. (1974) and a Th.M. in apologetics (1974). He then received an M.Litt. in New Testament from University of Cambridge (1977) and a Th.D. in New Testament from the University of Stellenbosch, Stellenbosch, South Africa (1981).

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's quite ridiculous to see atheists telling theists what theists believe. God forbid that people, yes theists too, actually think and think differently about things.

Exactly. I just posted the mathematical perspectives of 2 Trinitarian math people, but probably no one read them here since I haven't heard any forum comments on them.

http://www.math.sfu.ca/~jrg/scripts/godandmath_1.pdf

http://www.frame-poythress.org/poyth...4Creation.html

The second article is by Vern Poythress. He earned a B.S. in mathematics from California Institute of Technology (1966), where he was a Putnam fellow in 1964, and a Ph.D. in mathematics from Harvard University (1970). He studied linguistics and Bible translation at the Summer Institute of Linguistics at the University of Oklahoma in 1971 and 1972, and he enrolled at Westminster Theological Seminary, earning an M.Div. (1974) and a Th.M. in apologetics (1974). He then received an M.Litt. in New Testament from University of Cambridge (1977) and a Th.D. in New Testament from the University of Stellenbosch, Stellenbosch, South Africa (1981).

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe no one responded because we assumed it was a joke?

"Yes, non-Christians can do mathematics, but only because God enables them to do so. Only because the Christian God exists and sustains them and teaches them are they able to do mathematics, and to act as if God didn't exist."

Honestly, with statements like the above (of course justified through the Bible), noone can really take this seriously.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Weak argument Kurto. There were philosophical arguments as well as a lot of math in those articles. People in this forum keep taking paragraphs out of context and using it to bash. I wonder what the name is for that type of lame attack.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Weak argument Kurto. There were philosophical arguments as well as a lot of math in those articles. People in this forum keep taking paragraphs out of context and using it to bash. I wonder what the name is for that type of lame attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously... I'm not attempting to make an argument. I don't think its compelling to anyone except for the kind of people who just decide to believe something on Faith. Its not particularly interesting to discuss something that doesn't even begin to make a convincing or compelling statement.

I do see myself sending some choice quotes to people because (the second one in particular) is really funny. For that I thank you.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Weak argument Kurto. There were philosophical arguments as well as a lot of math in those articles. People in this forum keep taking paragraphs out of context and using it to bash. I wonder what the name is for that type of lame attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should be more clear - For the second one, the gist of the paper is the Bible says God created everything. Proof- see Bible. Then relates math/science/knowledge, etc. to how the Bible says its true.

Imagine how naive one would have to be to think this is meaningful?

Let's make it easy:
Cliff note: God created everything.
Proof - Bible says so

Since you see no flaw in this you will never get anywhere since there's a major hole in the logic here. Can you spot it?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. I just posted the mathematical perspectives of 2 Trinitarian math people, but probably no one read them here since I haven't heard any forum comments on them.


[/ QUOTE ]
I read them (quickly, but fairly completely). As I've said before, I dont see the point in commenting on a link when you've presented no argument or opinion though. You recall we had a similar discussion before - when I questioned the link you had posted, you responded "Why not write to them and ask your questions?"

I'm here to discuss people's opinions with the people who hold them. I can look up different perspectives on my own.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Kurto what are you afraid of? Afraid someone might think things through for themselves? One of the articles was addressing the crisis in mathematics and his historical takes on the evolution of mathematics and how it fit in with the trinitarian view. Why do you have to dumb everything down? Someone who really knows math might agree and that bothers you?

Bunny, I am answering the op. There's insight in these articles relevant to questions he raised. I don't have to state an opinion when I am giving him information that might answer the question he raised.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Splenda - I just posted to you the problem with the second agreement. Yet you ignore it and ask what I'm afraid of. There is a major logical fallacy since the entire premise of his paper requires everyone to accept the infallible truth that the Christian conception of God and the contents of the Bible are fact.

It is quite consistant that you post links to articles and then pretty much ignore all the posts that point out major holes/flaws in the posts.

Others have pointed out that you don't even have anything to add about the posts.

Just because you post something doesn't mean that its particularly compelling.

[ QUOTE ]
One of the articles was addressing the crisis in mathematics

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know a lot of mathematicians who agree that there is a crisis in mathematics. Any that think that what math is missing is Christianity? (I have to admit I'm laughing out loud even typing this.)

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you have to dumb everything down?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its your contention that I could dumb it down. One could argue that it was pretty 'down' many years before I looked at it.

[ QUOTE ]
Someone who really knows math might agree and that bothers you?


[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect you're the one who'd be most bothered by people's reaction to this. I suspect you'll have trouble finding a lot of mathmeticians who believe the only reason they can do math is because the Christian God allows them to.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bunny, I am answering the op. There's insight in these articles relevant to questions he raised. I don't have to state an opinion when I am giving him information that might answer the question he raised.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh sure - you dont have to post according to how I'd like you to, that wasnt what I meant. I was responding to this:

[ QUOTE ]
...probably no one read them here since I haven't heard any forum comments on them.

[/ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to point out that there was another possible explanation for why people hadnt responded besides your supposition that probably no one had read them. I didnt mean to say anything more than that. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Kurto this is the mantra of this forum:

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

The ideas expressed in the articles posted are directly opposed to many of the ideas routinely expressed in this forum. On a daily basis I read posts with people asking for arguments from theists positions and for explanations of theist arguments. Because you don't agree with the arguments presented doesn't make them pusillanimous, but quite the contrary.

Maybe other posters will agree with me that we need fewer poster trying to act as censors in this forum.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kurto what are you afraid of? Afraid someone might think things through for themselves? One of the articles was addressing the crisis in mathematics and his historical takes on the evolution of mathematics and how it fit in with the trinitarian view. Why do you have to dumb everything down? Someone who really knows math might agree and that bothers you?

Bunny, I am answering the op. There's insight in these articles relevant to questions he raised. I don't have to state an opinion when I am giving him information that might answer the question he raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are debaters on a pretty good forum. What we are interested in is mainly the debater's view on things, linking articles is great when you feel the need to explain some term to someone who asks for an explanation or someone asks for a link or your viewpoint is attacked as 'unsupported' and you feel the need to reference it.

When you use them as arguments against people used to science you should know:

1.) If you're good in your field, you really only need light browsing of an article to see if its junk, you don't need to read it in its entirety. I'm sure others here will testify to this also. That an article is debunked on the basis of a few silly lines in the abstract IS the reality of science, and I will even say its a good thing. So don't post links to bad articles - it will completely ruin your credibility in the argument!

2.) People used to reading scientific articles have very highly evolved BS radars, which you need, because bad articles often attempt to cover up flaws - generally when people have worked for 1 year on something, they want it to fit. Therefore you should think twice before presenting articles, make certain it is a good and solid article. If you can find something which is actually reputable in non-theist camps, you will have come along way. Examples of things like that are renowned history articles, linguistics articles etc.

3.) Reading a heavy article in a new field is very hard work, not many here really want to spend 2 hours reading an article and checking up on the references to see if it holds true - a statement and reference to a _reputable_ source will get the job done much easier.

4.) If you are debating with diehard atheists and don't want to get picked apart, I would avoid articles which uses the bible as fundamental proof. They add nothing to the debate, sorry. In those cases you might as well present the bible as your proof, the articles add nothing but fluff.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kurto this is the mantra of this forum:

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't realize there was a mantra. Furthermore, I never saw anyone saying you didn't have a right to post it. You were suprised that no one had commented on your post. I posted my thoughts about some possible reasons why.

[ QUOTE ]
The ideas expressed in the articles posted are directly opposed to many of the ideas routinely expressed in this forum. On a daily basis I read posts with people asking for arguments from theists positions and for explanations of theist arguments.


[/ QUOTE ]

People have asked for theists here about their ideas. You seem to post other people's ideas to which you cannot even begin to discuss intelligently. This is not your argument. You regularly show your complete inability to discuss the merits of the articles you post.

[ QUOTE ]
Because you don't agree with the arguments presented doesn't make them pusillanimous, but quite the contrary.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect you're misusing your dictionary. I posted a criticism of the second article. You, as usual, cannot address my specific complaints. Since you post articles and cannot discuss them, its a little unclear what your purpose is... or, for that matter, if you even understand what you've posted or the responses that have been posted.

Making further discussion somewhat pointless.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe other posters will agree with me that we need fewer poster trying to act as censors in this forum.



[/ QUOTE ]

Oddly enough, I don't see a lot of censorship. If anything, people have been trying to get you to post some of your own thoughts and arguments. But you usually just post links that often have little to do with the discussion at hand and, links to which you don't seem interested in actually discussing.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Thanks for your post tame_deuces.

One of the important ideas expressed in the articles beyond the blatant theistic point of view was the juxtaposition of historical perspectives on mathematics versus current perspectives. This in this day and age could be perceived as a radical/revolutionary paradigm not unlike the rebirth of Renaissance Arts from the Middle Ages. One of the key points these people are making is that there has been a fundamental shift in the approach to mathematics from the way the Ancients approached it. If they are right that this is a mistake then this has been a pretty radical departure and may hold future solutions to questions in mathematics.

Throughout history people have written papers and had the papers dismissed or their ideas were discovered late or their ideas were censored because they didn't agree with the current prevailing political/theological climate. In these particular articles the positional pro-Christian rhetoric is central to the articulation of the ideas they are arguing.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Throughout history people have written papers and had the papers dismissed or their ideas were discovered late or their ideas were censored because they didn't agree with the current prevailing political/theological climate.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact the Wright Brothers were laughed at and then proved right does NOT mean that when you are laughed at YOU are right.
common misconception

luckyme

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

lol...that's right I'll look like that guy with the egg on his head. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Throughout history people have written papers and had the papers dismissed or their ideas were discovered late or their ideas were censored because they didn't agree with the current prevailing political/theological climate.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact the Wright Brothers were laughed at and then proved right does NOT mean that when you are laughed at YOU are right.
common misconception

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, there are hundreds of thousands of morons who we've never heard of that were rightly called morons. A good rule of thumb is that if people are calling you a moron, odds are you are one.