Nuts on turn, no redraw -- jam or smooth call? (3/6 live)
 

I'm not an experienced Omaha/8 player, but was playing the 3/6 kill game at a local casino while waiting for a seat in another game when the following hand came up. At the table there is one strong player, a couple okay players, and a lot of terrible players.

Reads:

UTG+1 is playing his first hand at the table, so no real read (given his conversation with some of the other players, though, I get the impression he's an okay poker player who may be a new to Omaha).

Button is a solid, experienced player, capable of making plays in good spots.

I have a nitty table image because I'm a nit (well, because I don't put much money in without quality hands or quality draws -- so when I bet the turn it should be obvious to anbody at the table paying attention that I have the nuts).

BB is a calling station who overvalues weak hands and weak draws but has been running good.

Preflop: I'm in the CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG limps, UTG+1 raises, 2 cold-callers, I call, Button (strong player) calls, blinds and UTG calls.

Flop (16 SB): K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Checks to UTG+1 who bets, folds to me, I call, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn (10.5 BB): T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checks to me, I bet, Button raises, BB cold calls, UTG+1 cold calls, I ...

(a) 3-bet, call Button's 4-bet and hope the river doesn't pair the board or complete the flush. If the river is safe, then check/raise the Button.

(b) smooth call, planning to check-raise a safe river card, fold to a bet on a scary river from BB / UTG+1.

(c) other (explain).

Re: Nuts on turn, no redraw -- jam or smooth call? (3/6 live)
 

Proofrock - (a) is the choice.

"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky"

3-bet and hope that Button, who also likely has the Broadway, caps.

Buzz

Re: Nuts on turn, no redraw -- jam or smooth call? (3/6 live)
 

bump Buzz. I hate having SO many people see the river (unless all of their chips are in). you have mortal nuts. Isolate as much as you can.

Re: Nuts on turn, no redraw -- jam or smooth call? (3/6 live)
 

Yeah I like three betting here, there's only one flush draw, no straight redraw, and the board pairing... you also don't have to worry about a low hitting the river, just raise and get the chips in

Re: Nuts on turn, no redraw -- jam or smooth call? (3/6 live)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate having SO many people see the river (unless all of their chips are in).

[/ QUOTE ]

No choice -- after cold-calling once there's no reason BB and UTG+1 won't do it again, and the Button isn't folding the nuts. The raise here is for value, not isolation.

Re: Nuts on turn, no redraw -- jam or smooth call? (3/6 live)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Proofrock - (a) is the choice.

"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky"

3-bet and hope that Button, who also likely has the Broadway, caps.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the same conclusion I came to after the hand, though I played it more like a patient etherized at the table when I chose option (b). Although it seems a little unnecessary to justify capping the turn with the nuts in a multi-way pot, let me run my reasoning behind 3-betting the turn anyway to make sure it's correct.

The button almost certainly has broadway. BB and UTG+1 don't. If they're drawing they won't put any more money in on the river unless they hit, so I need to get value from them now. If either somehow think their hand is good, I should still get several bets out of them by jamming the turn. Even though I'm splitting the pot with the Button, we're both getting value from BB and UTG+1. Furthermore, since the pot doesn't grow geometrically like it does in pot-limit, I don't need to worry about accidentally isolating a Button who could be free-rolling.

The alternative line of calling the turn, then check-raising the river could be better only if (1) there weren't many plausible draws for BB or UTG+1 to be on (i.e., if they most likely think their hand is good now) and (2) I think they'd fold if the turn gets capped but I will be able to extract at least one extra bet from them by check-raising the river, catching them in the middle.

Since neither of these conditions are met, jamming the turn is better. Is this more or less the right idea?

Re: Nuts on turn, no redraw -- jam or smooth call? (3/6 live)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The button almost certainly has broadway.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. [ QUOTE ]
BB and UTG+1 don't.

[/ QUOTE ]Probably not.[ QUOTE ]
If they're drawing they won't put any more money in on the river unless they hit, so I need to get value from them now.

[/ QUOTE ]Proofrock - Charge them to try to out-draw you. Either knock them out of the pot or make it expensive for them to continue.

Forget the check-raising. It would be a disaster, an absolute blunder, if you allowed anyone to out-draw you and possibly take this whole pot away from you with a hand that would have been folded had you bet your own hand in straightforward fashion.

Button does probably also have the Broadway. And Button probably realizes you also have it. There is nothing either of you can do about it except to try to use it in your mutual favor. You both sort of gang up on your opponents. It's implied collusion (but not cheating).

"I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled."

Buzz

Re: Nuts on turn, no redraw -- jam or smooth call? (3/6 live)
 

Cap the turn, even if spade comes in the river, cap it. If you win you win a big pot, if you lose, oh well it was fun while it lasted right?

Re: Nuts on turn, no redraw -- jam or smooth call? (3/6 live)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Forget the check-raising.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't really being clear -- check-raising is for a safe river, since the Button will almost certainly bet it.

[ QUOTE ]
It would be a disaster, an absolute blunder, if you allowed anyone to out-draw you and possibly take this whole pot away from you with a hand that would have been folded had you bet your own hand in straightforward fashion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's pretty unlikely anybody is folding -- they'd be getting better pot odds after I 3-bet and button caps, and they've already cold-called once on the turn. I'd be delighted if either did fold, but I think there's only a 5% chance. But it's inconsequential that they aren't folding, because 3-betting and charging them to draw is better than not.

-J.A.

Re: Nuts on turn, no redraw -- jam or smooth call? (3/6 live)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't really being clear --

[/ QUOTE ]"Would it have been worth while
If one, settling a pillow or throwing off a shawl,
And turning toward the window, should say:
<ul type="square">“That is not it at all,
That is not what I meant, at all.”[/list]
[ QUOTE ]
check-raising is for a safe river, since the Button will almost certainly bet it.

[/ QUOTE ]J. Alfred - Bet a safe river yourself, hope you get an intervening caller, and maybe somehow (though not likely) you'll get an extra bet or two.

Check-raise and what will happen is check, check, check, bet (by Button), raise (by you), fold, fold, call. You get nothing you were not going to get by simply betting.

Buzz