5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

he is 24/21, 25wtsd, 47wwsf 5.28/4.69/2.82./2.20 AF over 40k hands. he really doesnt get out of line that much.

why is this bad? i think his calling range is way wider than his 3betting range. i think i am a dog to his 3bet range, but can still get more value by raising than calling his cbet.


Full Tilt Poker, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CUBLUFFIN (SB): $698.15
Hero (BB): $1,475
kmoneyk10 (UTG): $1,263.50
what a donk (BTN): $185

Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
<font color="red">kmoneyk10 raises to $35</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $25

Flop: ($75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">kmoneyk10 bets $50</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $175</font>, <font color="red">kmoneyk10 raises to $650</font>, Hero folds

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

I can't convince myself about the flop c/r here. I suppose he continues with KJ and other K+pair hands, but I can't see getting much value out of anything worse than AK, if we build the pot now.

I think I prefer a lead, but I don't know how often I expect my hand to be good if the money goes in.

Maybe just playing bluff catcher would be best.

So I guess I have a few problems with it:
1) He can represent a very very strong range here, while ours is much more limited. So he may put you on a bluff/semibluff, and he has a ton of leverage to "rebluff".
2) I think we get smooth called on the flop by the nuts and top two a lot, and sometimes by sets, which would leave you in a rough spot on the turn.
3) I think we fold out almost everything we beat, aside from a few hands that are drawing pretty live. (how many Kxs combos do you think he opens with? is he really gonna make a hero calldown with one pair on this board?)
bleh I'm rambling in this post, hopefully that makes sense.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

Jfish you're thinking is fine. Need more info/reads to know whether it's the best line though.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

I see dudes do this with JJ.....

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

i hate having hands pretty well exactly on the cusp of easy stackoff/easy fold. i think its the c/r thats our problem. yes it looks like the obvious play, but, i think it might not be the best one unless he's 3betting light here, or bluffing the turn too much if he calls flop and we check it to him.

and, like always, don't make a big move on somebody if you dont have reactions ready to his potential responses, unless the trouble responses are rare (though this time you might be off the hook, if you think his 3bet here is infrequent)

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

Looks fine to me

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

Edit: misread post

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't convince myself about the flop c/r here. I suppose he continues with KJ and other K+pair hands, but I can't see getting much value out of anything worse than AK, if we build the pot now.

I think I prefer a lead, but I don't know how often I expect my hand to be good if the money goes in.

Maybe just playing bluff catcher would be best.

So I guess I have a few problems with it:
1) He can represent a very very strong range here, while ours is much more limited. So he may put you on a bluff/semibluff, and he has a ton of leverage to "rebluff".
2) I think we get smooth called on the flop by the nuts and top two a lot, and sometimes by sets, which would leave you in a rough spot on the turn.
3) I think we fold out almost everything we beat, aside from a few hands that are drawing pretty live. (how many Kxs combos do you think he opens with? is he really gonna make a hero calldown with one pair on this board?)
bleh I'm rambling in this post, hopefully that makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like a lead also, but i dont see why are range is much more limited...i think you can CR flop with Aj also... J9 if hero always 3bet/folds AJ etc

the only hands we cant rep are KK.. JJ and TT are in our range but discounted, as is KQ and KT

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

this looks bad to me, rly bad

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Looks fine to me

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

[ QUOTE ]
this looks bad to me, rly bad

[/ QUOTE ]

usually i dont put too much stock in your posts [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img], but christophers said the same thing so i will see if anybody else feels this way.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

obviously not dismissing every other post.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

really dislike it.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

gotta give a better explanation than that fatty.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

i don't like it either, along the lines of BigJim's thinking. Another little thing is that if we play it slower, occasionally we will overtake him from behind.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

what about the times an A/Q/J/9 falls and i lose value from hands that i beat? i mean i can comfortably b/c lots of turns if i raise flop and he just calls.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

and given that he really doesnt get out of line unless you seriously push him (my read at least), i dont think he is 3betting in position too often here.

but it is 4 handed and i had c/red him 2 times before on this table or so.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

it would be cool if anybody who played ftp 5/10 and knew both of our images could comment on what you think the best flop line is here.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

not sure you get value from these hands with the flop check raise.... e.g. anything that can withstand your check-raise is either ahead of you or has reasonable equity on the flop. He has position, and if he calls the flop, when the turn comes we are in a pretty crappy spot oop, but he is going to be playing reasonably correctly. If the money then goes in the turn, again we are likely in deep doo doo.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

ok that makes sense to me.

what do you think the best line is here? c/c lead? b/c?

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

say he calls the flop c/r. pot $425. jfish bets $325 on turn, guy moves in for $700 more ish. is this an easy decision?

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

i would always call that [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]..

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

[ QUOTE ]
say he calls the flop c/r. pot $425. jfish bets $325 on turn, guy moves in for $700 more ish. is this an easy decision?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, fold. the thing about this hand is, this c/r is pretty much turning jfish's hand into a bluff. however, the other options are worse and the c/r is probably +ev.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

[ QUOTE ]
say he calls the flop c/r. pot $425. jfish bets $325 on turn, guy moves in for $700 more ish. is this an easy decision?

[/ QUOTE ]


No. I would never fold a blank turn though.

Edit: Changed my mind. Easy call.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok that makes sense to me.

what do you think the best line is here? c/c lead? b/c?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok the best way i can explain my thoughts about this hand sound a bit simplistic and patronising, but whatever.....

With that flop texture we have a medium strength hand and as such we really want to be playing a medium sized pot. If all the money goes in against a sane opponent we are obviously in big trouble.

The problem with the flop check raise is that we immediatly build the medium sized pot we are looking for, but still have 2 more streets to play, and oop to boot. Thus I think we need to control the pot size in a slower, more controlled manner.

There are a variety of ways this can be achieved. For example, against an aggro monkey we could bluff catch. However, against this opponent it is probably going to involving donking somewhere. He is likely betting the flop very often so I would probably c/c flop and then lead turn so that he cannot take a free card with a pair+draw.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok that makes sense to me.

what do you think the best line is here? c/c lead? b/c?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok the best way i can explain my thoughts about this hand sound a bit simplistic and patronising, but whatever.....

With that flop texture we have a medium strength hand and as such we really want to be playing a medium sized pot. If all the money goes in against a sane opponent we are obviously in big trouble.

The problem with the flop check raise is that we immediatly build the medium sized pot we are looking for, but still have 2 more streets to play, and oop to boot. Thus I think we need to control the pot size in a slower, more controlled manner.

There are a variety of ways this can be achieved. For example, against an aggro monkey we could bluff catch. However, against this opponent it is probably going to involving donking somewhere. He is likely betting the flop very often so I would probably c/c flop and then lead turn so that he cannot take a free card with a pair+draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

This means we fold to a raise?!

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

[ QUOTE ]
this looks bad to me, rly bad

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i actually agree with a e here, this play looks like ten types of terrible. The problem is that the information your getting from your c/r isnt gunna be accurate all the time. I dont knwo the villian that well but if hes good hell make this play as a bluff sometimes, making u fold the best hand

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

As played I fold.

However, I'd never play it that way. The only reason I'd c/r here is because I think he'll stack off with less, and unless you guys have some crazy history together I don't think he will.

I think the best options on the flop are c/c or lead. Since I basically never lead in HU raised pots, I'd c/c and lead a blank turn. You lead reasonably often, so that'd be a viable option here imo. The only problem with leading is that it can induce bluff raises which works against the idea of keeping the pot small and trying to see more cards cheaply.

I don't think you should be as concerned with getting max value out of something you beat in this hand. On this board vs. this opponent I don't think he's gonna be paying off big with anything you beat. When you raise on this flop after calling pf, your range becomes pretty transparent imo, basically KQ/KT/QT/J9/maayybe TT/bluff, and someone like kmoney simply isn't gonna make very many mistakes given that information. If you c/c or lead the flop he could definitely call down or keep firing w/ less though.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

I think u have about 45-55% equity, depending on how he plays a straight, a lone K and JJ.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

i odntl ike the way you played this, but given your line fold is fine.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

some confusing typos there tagtastic, but nice post.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

as a side note, what hands do you guys think my line is good with? any? (J9, AJ, KQ, QT, QJ, JT, A3, 56 etc.)

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

imo in this hand he used leveraging of stack sizes and pf+flop ranges well whereas you tried to rep a potentially great hand on the flop on an impossible flop to do so given your pf flat call/non-rr which eliminated you flopping a set, top 2 pair, or high straight/AJ.

given he knew you didnt have any of those, and he knew given he was pf raiser he could represent that, especially given 120bb deep, he knew whatever his cards were you would likely fold.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

[ QUOTE ]
imo in this hand he used leveraging of stack sizes and pf+flop ranges well whereas you tried to rep a potentially great hand on the flop on an impossible flop to do so given your pf flat call/non-rr which eliminated you flopping a set, top 2 pair, or high straight/AJ.

given he knew you didnt have any of those, and he knew given he was pf raiser he could represent that, especially given 120bb deep, he knew whatever his cards were you would likely fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless Hero has a history of c/r'ing air, His range of non-made hands consists of Pair + draw. Nobody c/r's a Big draw then folds. Given this range, Villan cannot expect Hero to fold.

Interestingly enough, Hero's hand is about the only reasonable holding that could find a fold after c/r'ing.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody c/r's a Big draw then folds

[/ QUOTE ]

what hand here would constitute a big draw? JK is the only contender but i still wouldn't enjoy it. JQ, TJ you could be in trouble. given he didnt reraise pf that leaves KT or QT and both are terrible hands here to get all the chips in.

fwiw, i'd make villain's reraise so often on the flop. i don't care that jfish is check-raising becuase i know, unless he has 9J, he doesn't have anything special, and i know that if i reraise on flop he knows i could have him crushed. obv got to do it in the correct time of flow of the game, but if my

[ QUOTE ]
calling range is way wider than his (my) 3betting range.

[/ QUOTE ]

then im def 3betting rags here.

anyways, as for line, i think check-call. not a fan of any line here, being the caller pf, oop on a huge flop generally sucks.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

Reasons why it could be good is I'm pretty sure kmoney is cbetting a pretty wide range (K9, QJ, TJ, Q9, etc) and jfish's read was that he felt at the time that kmoney's calling range of his c/r is wide.

And since it is going to be very unlikely to get much value out of the above hands after the flop (doubt he is betting those hands on turn often at all if jfish c/c flop or calling the river when turn checks through), then the flop is where jfish is going to get most of his value for the hand.

A lot of people are talking about stacking off, but once he calls the c/r, I would very rarely be putting anymore money in the pot.

It still may not be the best line but I could see how it could be.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

I think many people can do this with JT/QJ/JJ and just be ready to roll vs whatever you have, especially if you've been checkraising a lot lately. This is a spot where I think you just have to lead if you don't know how to react to his 3 bet of your CR. So now that I've said what everyone else said, there ya go.

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

he's a nit 25/20 player. j/k

but I havnt played a ton with him but when I have he seems not to get out of line, so flop I would fold.

with your image, c/r and stacking off on turn is prob. bad imo

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

looks good jfish

not in love with the line but given you took it, you played it best

Re: 5/10 vs kmoney, explain something to me
 

I'm coming in late on this, but I really don't like this either. I don't know why, jfish, but no one ever thinks you have anything, so people wind up doing stupid things here against you (or at least they do against me), also your hand is about as strong as it could be here other than the few times you cold call out of the blinds with a big pair, so he could actually be deciding to take a stand with a worse hand than yours. That said, its definately not profitable to call his flop 3 bet after a check raise, and if he gets it in on the turn, I still think you are behind his range here.

It makes it a little better that its against kmoney, because he seems really straightforward postflop, but i think you lose value against worse hands here and occasionally get pushed off the best hand.

Against kmoney, i don't like a lead too much, but I like a check/call, on the flop and figure out what to do based on the turn card, with the posibility of a stop and go on a blank, but probably another check, and if he checks behind value betting the river.