NFD facing flop c/r
 

I think this situation happens fairly frequently, what should be my default?

This hand happened 1-2 weeks ago so I can't really remember the game dynamic, I was likely playing 22-20ish, very aggressive. This guy might have been on one-two of my tables but we didn't have history, I remember he was very taggy and didn't call alot preflop, probably something like 21/19 or 19/17. I didn't have a big enough sample to check flop c/r but he has never done this before. Notice that we have eff stacks of like $500 if that changes anything. Villains name is snappo on ftp.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $69.55
fees: $483.80
CO: $828.80
Button: $759.25
SB: $697.10
BB: $400

Pre-flop: (6 players) fees is UTG+1 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">fees raises to $14</font>, 2 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($32, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">fees bets $24</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $88</font>, <font color="#cc0000">fees </font>

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

3 town ldo

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

i make it like $215

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

be4 i even saw the post i knew the answer would be to 3 bet

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

sick read

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

mk, what made the hand interesting to me was the stack sizes. With given information how much do you want to have behind to just call, if ever. If you never call this raise, what size eff stacks do you 3b/fold (which is gross imo)

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

Imho this raise is not very smart for a numer of reasons. First you are over 100 deep do you really thinks he goes crazy with a midpair on this board oop with the high inverse implied odds, dont think so?. Second since he is tight and calls less likely with hands like KJs u are many many times up against a set drawing semidead. Giving hjim the tight range and assuming he is not going crazy with a midpair for the reasons stated before.
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

16,830 games 0.005 secs 3,366,000 games/sec

Board: 2c 8c 9d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.301% 38.30% 00.00% 6446 0.00 { Ac3c }
Hand 1: 61.699% 61.70% 00.00% 10384 0.00 { TT-88, 22, KcQc, QcJc }


To me u only thinks " nah have overcard and nfd stick it in what the hell"

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

does being in position mean anything? 3b oop/call ip = bad? that is what I would do....

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
Imho this raise is not very smart for a numer of reasons. First you are over 100 deep do you really thinks he goes crazy with a midpair on this board oop with the high inverse implied odds, dont think so?. Second since he is tight and calls less likely with hands like KJs u are many many times up against a set drawing semidead. Giving hjim the tight range and assuming he is not going crazy with a midpair for the reasons stated before.
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

16,830 games 0.005 secs 3,366,000 games/sec

Board: 2c 8c 9d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.301% 38.30% 00.00% 6446 0.00 { Ac3c }
Hand 1: 61.699% 61.70% 00.00% 10384 0.00 { TT-88, 22, KcQc, QcJc }


To me u only thinks " nah have overcard and nfd stick it in what the hell"

[/ QUOTE ]
lol its nothing new that a flush draw is behind someones range if called. But people fold sometimes........

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

no idea if that is funny pokerstove should olny show that he is way behind. So please give a range of hands a player as described in the hand description raises and then folds. I am curious

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
no idea if that is funny pokerstove should olny show that he is way behind. So please give a range of hands a player as described in the hand description raises and then folds. I am curious

[/ QUOTE ]

so what do you propose we do? fold to the 3 bet or call it?

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

only mistake you can make here is folding

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
Imho this raise is not very smart for a numer of reasons. First you are over 100 deep do you really thinks he goes crazy with a midpair on this board oop with the high inverse implied odds, dont think so?. Second since he is tight and calls less likely with hands like KJs u are many many times up against a set drawing semidead. Giving hjim the tight range and assuming he is not going crazy with a midpair for the reasons stated before.
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

16,830 games 0.005 secs 3,366,000 games/sec

Board: 2c 8c 9d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.301% 38.30% 00.00% 6446 0.00 { Ac3c }
Hand 1: 61.699% 61.70% 00.00% 10384 0.00 { TT-88, 22, KcQc, QcJc }


To me u only thinks " nah have overcard and nfd stick it in what the hell"

[/ QUOTE ]

big [censored] surprise, another spot where you hate a raise. do you ever find a spot worth raising?

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

yes spots where i can think an range i am either ahead or have decent fold equity. I don't see that in this hand. If i am wrong there must be a whole range villian as he is described raises the flop but folds to a 3bet. So please give me that range

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

LOL dude, you have 16 posts so far and I'm pretty sure all 16 say..."i don't like a raise here IMHO".

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

this is definitely a very excellent spot to 3bet small or call and push turn depending on sb's frequencies with leading the turn again.

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

xorbie using the tight and not calling much description what range do you give him raising the flop but folding to a 3bet since without fold equity 3bet can't be right

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
xorbie using the tight and not calling much description what range do you give him raising the flop but folding to a 3bet since without fold equity 3bet can't be right

[/ QUOTE ]

A5o.

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

190

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

Could you please explain? Are you just trying to make fun of me ?

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

jesus dude, he's just saying that SB can easily be c/r'ing w/ his entire range of hands that missed the flop as well as the range of hands that hit. he can also be c/r'ing a worse flush draw for that matter where he is dominated badly. therefore FE does exist and we will have outs still when he has a real hand.

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

As desribed his range is not very wide and also this board combined with the stacksizes is not very likely for a c/r with air.I would be very pleased if you could tell me a range which in your oppinion villian could c/r here and fits the description of villian so i can figure out how many % he has to do the the c/r with air to make 3 bet profitable.

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
he can also be c/r'ing a worse flush draw for that matter where he is dominated badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

there.
thread over.
change his hand to non nut FD and continue thread if u want.

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

Villian could also be raising w/ JJ or QQ here (and probably not folding) J10cc, QJcc are also not folding but you are +ev against all of these hands. He will not be folding 89,99,88,22 obv so if you three-bet, he will probably shove quite often and you will always be beat and have to call. However, by just calling, if you hit the flush you will not get paid by qq, jj, 1010, 2pair, but sets will still go to the river w/ 10 outs. Lower flushes pay you everytime. Folding may be your best play here.

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villian could also be raising w/ JJ or QQ here (and probably not folding) J10cc, QJcc are also not folding but you are +ev against all of these hands. He will not be folding 89,99,88,22 obv so if you three-bet, he will probably shove quite often and you will always be beat and have to call. However, by just calling, if you hit the flush you will not get paid by qq, jj, 1010, 2pair, but sets will still go to the river w/ 10 outs. Lower flushes pay you everytime. Folding may be your best play here.

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes my head hurt

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

i think the SB can be raising sth. like JT here too, although most times i see him having a set here. I would probably just muck it since 3bet/fold is not an option imo, with 3bet/call we mostly put our money in behind so fold seems logical to me

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

3bet, u figure he could be semi-bluffing with worse fds or straight draws, could be doing this with TT or JJ if he chose to not to 3bet pf, or maybe even 109, all of which will probably fold to a 3bet and even if they dont ur roughly a coinflip and therefore should get it in. Obviously hell also have a set or 89 sometimes but its not like those r the only hands in his range and yet those r the only hands in his range where it would be bad to 3bet.

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

How could someone with the above describtion ever have a hand like T9 here ? Thas is soooo unlikely nearly impossible imho

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
How could someone with the above describtion ever have a hand like T9 here ? Thas is soooo unlikely nearly impossible imho

[/ QUOTE ]

i said maybe, i dont think its very likely but that isnt the only hand in villains range which a 3bet would be profitable against.

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

ARE PPL SRSLY ADVOCATING FOLDING TEH_NUTZ HERE?

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

wow @ 2+2 nowadays

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

I like a shove. He could be c/r flop with a lower FD, maybe JT with no spade, or sometimes with 9x. I don't like coldcalling because enough at 2/4nl there will be people who c/r u on flop with such a wide range. I think shoving here has tons of FE. I don't like calling, because you're only staying n the hand on the turn if you make the nuts, in which case, you might not get paid, or an ace hits, which you won't prob get paid on either.

Re: NFD facing flop c/r
 

Im still curious what stack sizes people just call here with