1-2 at Commerce
 

I raise UTG with AhTd (I know some fold, whatever).....Steve Banks and Eva both cold call (hand range for those who dont know them is any 2 from j7s to Aqo....very wide range! Tongni calls out of BB.....flop KdTc4d..

I bet, Steve and Eva calls and Tongni raises, we all call....turn is 2d......Tongni bets, what is my turn play?

Calling I think is terrible.....folding I think is fine may be in trouble and 2 to act behind me.....raise and try to clean up my outs as an A or diamond may complete qj or kjd or qdt......

Thoughts?

Re: 1-2 at Commerce
 

tongni's hand looks a lot like a flush draw on the flop. you shouldve 3 bet the flop to get out the gutter balls.

Re: 1-2 at Commerce
 

what about checking the flop? and seeing how the action develops?

After you bet and Topngni c/r's I lean towards 3betting

After you just call I would call turn and make a decision on river.

JT

Re: 1-2 at Commerce
 

i really hate folding... but i think if i was in this spot and i thought about this for a little folding would be the obviously correct thing to do here

Re: 1-2 at Commerce
 

Very tricky spot, i think in the moment i would tend to raise sometimes and call sometimes, but a fold is most prudent. The thing here is that you want/need to raise to clean up flush outs as you mentioned, but the cost of doing so could make it not worth since tongni could easily have a flush and will 3 town your ass with two pair or better anyway because he's solid and knows he's well ahead of your range. So the since you would need to raise to clean up outs and expose yourself to being 3 bet correctly by a wider range than usual (and not even neccesarily cleaning your outs up 100%), i think a fold becomes better than a call.

Re: 1-2 at Commerce
 

fold. The best case scenario is that tongni has black KJ and you can raise the turn and get one of the monkies to fold the Qd (which may not be a guarantee anyway), but I think that is just too unlikely to happen.

Re: 1-2 at Commerce
 

I personally 3 bet the flop and since you didn't I would fold the turn for the same reasons than ggbman... You could already be drawing dead and with still 2 to act it's more prudent to just throw it away. I fold preflop too, ATo is a trouble hand full ring UTG [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

This sucks.
 

I remember when I at least could talk a halfway decent game of limit Hold'Em.

These days, my mind has become so lazy and flabby from lack of play and competition that I read a decent thread like this and I feel like a fat, out-of-shape slob tryin' to run around a high school track in an attempt to kid myself into believing the years and the cheeseburgers haven't taken their toll.

TSP

Re: This sucks.
 

I don't understand the flop re-raise that a lot of people are recommending. I don't think we're ahead here enough nor can we get a better hand to fold enough to make it profitable. I guess part of it is if we think that Tongni will fire the turn again with the flush draw. If so I think it's a lot better to wait until a non-diamond hits and then raise for a free showdown.

Alright, let me know why I'm wrong [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: 1-2 at Commerce
 

Against tongni's checkraise I prefer not reraising the flop, and also, I would now fold on this turn. In my view folding > raising > calling.

Why no flop reraise?: His hand range is a lot smaller here than most people realize. It is very much weighted towards set, AK, KQ, and maybe the occasional QJ or flush draw (I say occasional because he's not an idiot and sees you raised UTG and bet on the flop, he is aware there's some percent chance his checkraise gets 3-bet because that board hits your UTG range hard a ton).

I know there's some value in knocking out 2 other opponents, but it's a situation that doesn't matter at all vs his checkraising range.