Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

So far I've been playing pretty tight, haven't made many moves etc.
Villain has been playing very aggro 3betting a lot one hand he 3bet the pfr with 34s and showed down his pair of 3s which beat the other guys Ace high. That said most of the time he has shown down a hand he has had it and despite his agression he isn't an idiot. Seems like a pretty solid player.

Blinds are 100/200 I have 9.6k he has 9.1k

Folded to me in the SB I make it 600 with AdTd he calls.(This could be a very wide range of hands)

Flop is Qd As 4s (1200)

I bet 800 he calls

Turn is the Jd Pot is (2800)

My line?

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

I think you can do whatever here, as long as you don't fold -- bet/call, CRAI if he seems like the type to bet if you slow down in the hand. I think I like betting a little better, because it's possible he's on a spade flush draw and checks behind, but if he has anything other than a spade flush draw, he's probably not checking behind on this board.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

If he is aggressive, he can't have AK, AQ, AJ, AT, or 44 IMO he would 3 bet these hands all day. He may even 3 bet the QJ... He may have AA or QQ and been playing tricky, but this is unlikely. He is giving enough action, he doesn't have to trap.

If you are losing, it would probably be to 1 of the following hands:
QJ
A4
Q4
J4
KT

I would think I am likely ahead here, so what does he have. My bet is weak A, weak Q or flush draw.

.5 to 1.0 pot sized bet on the turn.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

FWIW my initial turn thought is check and call.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

Does villain seem like crazy lag or smart lag?
Big difference. I think I like c/c. This a decent flop for him to float and he isn't going to call crais with that many worse hands and will never fold better. There aren't any bad rivers really.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

1600

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

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Does villain seem like crazy lag or smart lag?
Big difference. I think I like c/c. This a decent flop for him to float and he isn't going to call crais with that many worse hands and will never fold better. There aren't any bad rivers really.

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More like a smart lag... when he had 34s he flopped bottom pair and had a psb left but just checked it down.. I would except a lagtard to just shove flop. Like I don't think stuff like J4 and Q4 are in his range pf. For better hands in his range it would prob be like any two pair with an ace but discount AQ and AJ. AA and QQ are very unlikely given how wide he's 3bet I don't think he's stupid enough to call once he set up his image.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

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Does villain seem like crazy lag or smart lag?
Big difference. I think I like c/c. This a decent flop for him to float and he isn't going to call crais with that many worse hands and will never fold better. There aren't any bad rivers really.

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More like a smart lag... when he had 34s he flopped bottom pair and had a psb left but just checked it down.. I would except a lagtard to just shove flop. Like I don't think stuff like J4 and Q4 are in his range pf. For better hands in his range it would prob be like any two pair with an ace but discount AQ and AJ. AA and QQ are very unlikely given how wide he's 3bet I don't think he's stupid enough to call once he set up his image.

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this implies when he 3-bet the 34s he would be getting 2:1 to call a shove pf. seems like he's not that good(?).

i think c/c is good.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

i like c/c as well on turn. There are not many river cards that you will not be at least c/c here. ALso, if he bets 1600+ then you will ~PSB left on river. So I like the play.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

i typically c/c turn because villian almost always thinks you're giving up

then on the river i either c/c or c/r or bet depending on what comes out

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

c/c turn, let him take initiative with worse, and decide on river line based on what hits.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

i like a c/c. do you think he double barrels once he takes initiative here? I'm asking because I'm not sure how many complicated decisions youd face on the river, you certainly dont have to worry about a ton of scare cards but do you call any bet unimproved?

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

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i typically c/c turn because villian almost always thinks you're giving up

then on the river i either c/c or c/r or bet depending on what comes out

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Yeah this.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

c/c turn c/c any river except a diamond or king which you c/r

I really feel this line is strictly best

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

Bet something small like 1k or something [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

C/R ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRIN.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

I'm with Gobbo. I'm not folding in this spot. I would feign giving up, throw him the rope and get my chips in the middle. There's already 30% of your remaining stack sitting out there. Charge him to draw or showdown a worse ace. In the event you're behind, any diamond, king (ten?, ace?) bails you out.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

Gobbo,
Why would you crai nobody ever folds 2 pair or better here. AK might fold sometimes. At the same time most people wont play for stacks with like Ax or Kq.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

Either bet 2k and call a shove or CRAI

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

Bet-call, w/o the diamonds I c/c.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

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Bet-call, w/o the diamonds I c/c.

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Think you got it backwards chief. I'd c/c here with diamonds and just bet/call without them.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

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Bet-call, w/o the diamonds I c/c.

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Think you got it backwards chief. I'd c/c here with diamonds and just bet/call without them.

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wtf, the diamonds increase our equity tremendously, c/c seems kinda bad here, probably bet call or c/r all in

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

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Bet-call, w/o the diamonds I c/c.

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Think you got it backwards chief. I'd c/c here with diamonds and just bet/call without them.

[/ QUOTE ]No because 1. we can't be pushed off our hand and 2. if villain has a draw it's likely very live (our NFD doesn't cover it). Not saying that c/c doesn't have merit here, but it's not your typical 'I flopped a mediocre showdownable hand and the NFD so c/c all the way'

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

K I was villain in this hand. The guy crai with Atdd I insta called with AJ and busted him. I think crai here is the worst line other than folding. Almost all better hands call and almost worse hands fold... crai is pretty bad here IMO.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

btw I knew it was switched cuz you called villain a pretty solid player [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

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K I was villain in this hand. The guy crai with Atdd I insta called with AJ and busted him. I think crai here is the worst line other than folding. Almost all better hands call and almost worse hands fold... crai is pretty bad here IMO.

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This is BvB i think most Aces are calling here. I think c/r allin is fine.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

I hate when people say "tough spot" when they have the virtual nuts and its just a question of how to get the most value.

THIS ISN'T A TOUGH SPOT. c/r, c/c, b/c are all probably similar EV/opponent dependent. Just don't fold, profit.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

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Bet-call, w/o the diamonds I c/c.

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Think you got it backwards chief. I'd c/c here with diamonds and just bet/call without them.

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wtf, the diamonds increase our equity tremendously, c/c seems kinda bad here, probably bet call or c/r all in

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Right, it improved our hand equity vs his entire range, but being raised on the turn sucks. We'd probably have to call but we're usually behind. On the other hand, giving a free card with ATdd isn't bad either, not many cards hurt us. With an offsuit AT, this isn't the case, a lot of cards really suck on the turn, and a free card is pretty deadly, so we need to bet for value and also protection. We're ahead and behind the same hands with ATdd as we are ATo, the difference is the latter is much more vulnerable.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

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I hate when people say "tough spot" when they have the virtual nuts and its just a question of how to get the most value.

THIS ISN'T A TOUGH SPOT. c/r, c/c, b/c are all probably similar EV/opponent dependent. Just don't fold, profit.

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Ummm...lost winnings hurt just as bad as actual losses?
Well, kinda.

Re: Tough Spot in the 1k with a pair + a monster draw
 

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Bet-call, w/o the diamonds I c/c.

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Think you got it backwards chief. I'd c/c here with diamonds and just bet/call without them.

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wtf, the diamonds increase our equity tremendously, c/c seems kinda bad here, probably bet call or c/r all in

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Right, it improved our hand equity vs his entire range, but being raised on the turn sucks. We'd probably have to call but we're usually behind. On the other hand, giving a free card with ATdd isn't bad either, not many cards hurt us. With an offsuit AT, this isn't the case, a lot of cards really suck on the turn, and a free card is pretty deadly, so we need to bet for value and also protection. We're ahead and behind the same hands with ATdd as we are ATo, the difference is the latter is much more vulnerable.

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i agree with some of this however be4 u were saying that you said that u were bet calling with the aces ten without a diamond and c/c with diamonds. Maybe this spot is one where its good to c/c with diamonds, but definitely if we have no diamonds it seems like a bet fold to me for the same reason why people who advocated c/c with diamonds in the first place, which is that no worse hands usually are rasising all in on the turn and ur equity is bad when ur all in. Stealthmunk was right earlier that its hard to make a mistake here, and i agree with this. I think c/c is best vrs a passive straightforwardish player who isnt capable of multi steeet bluffs, then ud fold to a river bet when u blank. But i think people who are against c/r all in are overlooking a few things. 1. this is better than a bet call since blind vrs blind its definitely possible that hes floating so we maximize our value vrs air. 2. based on ur history and him knowing u know hes agressive he def could liekly get all in with worse in this spot ( most people in cash know that to protect there floats they have to bet call a lot of worse aces in this spot). 3. if we c/c vrs an agressive opponent we are at his mercy out of position on the river and our hand is face up against a good player, which is a bad situation 4. if we c/c and a diamond hits we might not get payed off. I think if the stacks are deeper that c/c makes a lot more sense since theres more merit in keeping lower draws in, and not building a pot. blind on blind though and shallowish stacks (compared to cash) makes this a c/r all in.