Standard?
 

Ok, all the talk about not raising has got me confused. I consider the way I played this hand very standard, but do you?

Only read on BB is that he has donked an OESD 3-way from BB after OTB raised preflop and SB checked the flop.

5/10 5-max, Hero is OTB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Preflop:
UTG calls, CO folds, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB checks, <font color="red">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="red">hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="red">BB bets</font>, <font color="red">hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (10BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="red">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Re: Standard?
 

If this isnt standard I dont want to be standard.

Re: Standard?
 

I play it the same. Why would we not raise the turn here? If villain's got 2 pair we've got lot's of outs and I wan't to charge SB if he's drawing. I also think we're ahead here a lot.

Re: Standard?
 

A lot of times the turn is a bet/3bet. I think on this particular turn card though I'm always raising. I might think twice on a 6 or 7, always raise a jack or a ten. I like a jack better than a ten though.

Re: Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of times the turn is a bet/3bet. I think on this particular turn card though I'm always raising. I might think twice on a 6 or 7, always raise a jack or a ten. I like a jack better than a ten though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would a Ten be better than a 7 and especially a 6? Both the T and 7 put a 3 strt on board, why would you feel more comfortable raising a T as opposed to a 7?

Re: Standard?
 

totally standard except the converter is messed up

I've been thinking about the post that ILP made about using more passive lines to extract the most value. I think that in spots where you don't have to worry about protection (heads up, multiway with ragged boards) it can be better to just call the flop.

you win the most from bluffs and weak hands that would give up if you put in flop action, and you you win an extra half bet from any worse hand that villain will call down with. you charge draws more when their equity is worse, and you reduce their implied odds by keeping them in the lead.

I think you still need to raise the flop a significant amount of the time to give your semibluff raises credibility though.

ps stop playing in my games

edit: and this definately isn't one of those spots because the board is draw heavy and it is multiway

Re: Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of times the turn is a bet/3bet. I think on this particular turn card though I'm always raising. I might think twice on a 6 or 7, always raise a jack or a ten. I like a jack better than a ten though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would a Ten be better than a 7 and especially a 6? Both the T and 7 put a 3 strt on board, why would you feel more comfortable raising a T as opposed to a 7?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because for some reason people donk QJ like every time here. A ten is better than a 7 IMO because JT gets there with a 7. It's close to rambling.

For some reason I've just seen that the people who donk QJo on this flop are also the type to donk the straight when they hit it.

Re: Standard?
 

I wasn't particularly thinking about ILP when I made this post. I know he mostly talks about small HU pots on dry boards. There has been other posters wanting to take more passive lines in bigger mw pots.

Re: Standard?
 

I'm not raising the turn here, because if you get bet/3bet, you are losing almost always, and still have to call the river bet.

If you raise the turn, and get 3bet, you should call the 3bet, then fold the river UI.

I don't want to fold the river UI, so I just call down, and bet if he checks. On this particular river card, I'm raise/capping the river.

The flop is a must raise, since you have ppl after you.

The turn I just call down. You will get 2BB everytime, regardless of what he has.

The turn raise isn't bad, it just puts you in a tough spot if he bet/3bets the turn.

On a side note, if a good tag bets this turn, raising is suicide, because it's going to be a bet/3bet so often.

Re: Standard?
 

"The turn I just call down. You will get 2BB everytime, regardless of what he has."

100% not true

Re: Standard?
 

This is standard for me and I don't think this relates to previous discussions on playing passively heads-up.

Re: Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]

On a side note, if a good tag bets this turn, raising is suicide, because it's going to be a bet/3bet so often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. The more competent someone is, the less likely this becomes a blocking bet or bluff. If a competent player donked that flop I would already be suspicious though and might have played the flop differently.

Re: Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"The turn I just call down. You will get 2BB everytime, regardless of what he has."

100% not true

[/ QUOTE ]


so you say a guy that takes this line is going to donk the flop, call a raise, donk the turn, and check fold the river?

I have a billion hands agasint these guys at 5-10, they aren't betting the turn, getting called, and check folding the river with a pair.

They aren't betting the flop, get raised, donking the turn, and then c/f the river with a draw.

It's all about momentum. If they have a missed draw, and think you have AQ, they are going to bet the river.

If you disagree, then just raise the turn.

Re: Standard?
 

I always raise the turn here or wait and raise the river. I dont really care if i get bet 3bet on the turn occasionally for 2 reasons.

The rare times we are bet 3bet here we usually have 8 outs . 99 88 usually 3 ball pre and 98 is 3 times as likely as 33. This turn donk is usually a weaker hand anyways, which maybe means we should call and raise a blank? So the frequency of a bet 3bet is the first reason the second is how we are doing against that range and the size of it (which dictates the frequency). Plus sometimes this is a retarded worse overpair, slightly more often than 99 88 or AA id say.

Re: Standard?
 

I think an interesting question is if we are bet 3bet on the turn (or cr'd) are there any non K rivers we are raising? a 4 or a 3? We pulled ahead slightly against his range and the two top sets should probably be discounted a far amount vs most villains. Are u more likely to raise the river after a bet 3bet or a check raise (guessing cr)?

Re: Standard?
 

Not raising the turn here sucks. Hard. If you get 3-bet, you get 3-bet, but you'll have 2 or more likely 8 outs anyway. And not raising leaves so much value on the table when villain thinks he's valuetowning 66/A9 here.

Re: Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"The turn I just call down. You will get 2BB everytime, regardless of what he has."

100% not true

[/ QUOTE ]


so you say a guy that takes this line is going to donk the flop, call a raise, donk the turn, and check fold the river?

I have a billion hands agasint these guys at 5-10, they aren't betting the turn, getting called, and check folding the river with a pair.

They aren't betting the flop, get raised, donking the turn, and then c/f the river with a draw.

It's all about momentum. If they have a missed draw, and think you have AQ, they are going to bet the river.

If you disagree, then just raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

One general criticism I have is that people seem to always assume a passive line will get you paid off that people will 3-barrel you almost 100% of the time.

1st off this is bad news for when you don't have KK. A big advantage of being aggro and showing down super light is that people will try and quit bluffing you. What is the a-typical response to the monthly "how do i beat this 50/40?" - it's tighten up. And you know what? That's wrong. But who cares about that point, the point is that people will tighten up more. They will check/call their draws here more so when i have AJ i'm getting a cheap showdown and winning UI. Because "this idiot (us) isn't folding."

But then when it comes to this passive approach people assume that with no read someone is firing 3-barrels into us?

"so you say a guy that takes this line is going to donk the flop, call a raise, donk the turn, and check fold the river?"

Well I think he can check/call the river, no? All depends on how many times OP has raised this flop with AK.

"I have a billion hands agasint these guys at 5-10, they aren't betting the turn, getting called, and check folding the river with a pair."

They can check/call right? And they can check/raise? They can donk again too.

"They aren't betting the flop, get raised, donking the turn, and then c/f the river with a draw."

Now this i think is very possible.

What this all boils down to is how you've played every other hand in this spot and what you do with your whole range here. I for one am very against just calling down with strong hands against irrational action (bet/call bet/3bet is a pretty crazy line and one i think only someone who is a good thinking player would take vs. me with a hand like 89 here). I think it makes every other hand I play much more difficult. You have no idea how easy of a raise KK is for me in this spot after I've shown down 78 here the last 4 times.

Re: Standard?
 

Great post Danza.

If I may, cliff notes: KK crushes your range in this spot (or at least it should, IMO), making this a very easy raise.

Re: Standard?
 

yeah.

Even for a lot of tags it still does though if you're the type to raise KQ for a free card on this flop 100% of the time. Which a lot of you are (not a criticism, an observation).

Re: Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
On this particular river card, I'm raise/capping the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT <font color="white">lol?</font>

Re: Standard?
 

LOL miles, what do you think of the semi-interesting part of the hand.

Re: Standard?
 

VNH.

Re: Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this isnt standard I dont want to be standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, Against an unknown, I would not raise a turn donk after this action if the turn card was a A,Q,J,T,9,8,7,6,5,diamond.

If the turn is a 2,3,or 4, I need a very strong read not to raise. I understand that if we raise here it will be impossible to respond correctly to a 3bet given the lack of information on our opponent, but sometimes you'll be in a situation where you'll have the nuts often enough that even if you dont know what to do if 3bet, raising is still worth it. I think thats the situation were in when the turn card is a 2,3,4.

I think the hero played this hand well.

Re: Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On this particular river card, I'm raise/capping the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT <font color="white">lol?</font>

[/ QUOTE ]


LMAO

Re: Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of times the turn is a bet/3bet

[/ QUOTE ]

This was certainly true in the Party 5/10 game prior to the US legislation. The line was so abused it was sick. However, I have noticed that this is not used anywhere near as often anymore. In fact, it almost always is a picked up draw or a bet to prevent a free card.

Re: Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On this particular river card, I'm raise/capping the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT <font color="white">lol?</font>

[/ QUOTE ]


[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On this particular river card, I'm raise/capping the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT <font color="white">lol?</font>

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

was this a clever jab at my post?