Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

Some of you may already be familiar with threads like this. For those of you who aren't, this is how it works:

I describe a situation, and the community votes and discusses the best course of action. After a short period of voting/discussion, the action is executed, and the hand continues. Very few options will be chosen automatically, most will be left for voting/discussion.

My goal here is to play through an entire HU NLTRN from beginning to end. This will allow examples of in-depth analysis based on reads gained from earlier in the match. This could be great, and my plan is to update this thread at least daily.

So let's begin.

The setting is $100 HU NLHE tournament. As per the norm in HU tournaments, you've never seen your opponent before.

Hand 1
(SB)Hero 1500
(BB)Villain 1500

Hero posts 10. Villain posts 20. Hero has 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

skip this one please and raise

edit: to t60

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
skip this one please and raise

edit: to t60

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I can do that.

Hand 1
(SB)Hero 1500
(BB)Villain 1500

Hero posts 10. Villain posts 20. Hero has 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero raises to 60. Villain folds.

Hand 2

(SB)Villain 1480
(BB)Hero 1520

Villain posts 10, Hero posts 20.

Villain raises to t60. Hero has 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Hero?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

I think this one is going to be no-contest as well.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this one is going to be no-contest as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright. I wanted to leave room for dissention/discussion just in case though.

Hand 2

(SB)Villain 1480
(BB)Hero 1520

Villain posts 10, Hero posts 20.

Villain raises to t60. Hero has 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero calls.

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (pot 120).
Hero?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

This is going to be tough to pull off . It's much more difficult to do these for heads up games and put forth a generic answer . It's a lot easier to do this for ring games .

What if the button raises 100% of the time . Wouldn't you contemplate re-raising ?

Now what if the button raises 30% of the time ?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

It's first hand, then second hand. You can't use your "100% raiser" or "5% raiser" quick calcs for this one [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

Alright , fair enough .

I won't be a nit anymore [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is going to be tough to pull off . It's much more difficult to do these for heads up games and put forth a generic answer . It's a lot easier to do this for ring games .

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how it's any more difficult. The ring game examples are simply "play this hand as if you were playing this ring game." This thread is just "play this hand as if you were playing HU."

[ QUOTE ]
What if the button raises 100% of the time . Wouldn't you contemplate re-raising ?

Now what if the button raises 30% of the time ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, there are circumstances where raising or folding would be better, but as of yet, we don't know that button is raising 100% or 30%, and there's no reason to assume he is. This is no different than a HU SnG. In a HU SnG, we don't know how often villain raises the btn by the second hand in, but we still have to make decisions. This is just a practice session of that.

This hand with the 3c3d on the Q84r flop is certainly a situation I'm unsure about, and I'd like to hear the 2p2 consensus on the situation. Another thing I'm really interested in is betsizing, since I think I need work in that aspect. Later on, it'll be interesting to get different people's opinions on villains image, how we gave him that image, and what we should do about it.

I think this is just like an analysis of a HH.


That said, I voted to bet the flop on hand 2. Check/fold is too weak (why'd we even call pre?, plus I think he's gonna c-bet this flop a lot). Check/call has some serious reverse-implied-odds problems, since our hand will rarely improve and we're OOP. I honestly don't like betting all that much, but I think it's the best option. I'd bet 75 here. Of course I'm hoping he folds, and I don't see much way to continue with the hand if he calls (which is why I'm not so hot on betting here).

Anyone agree/disagree?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alright .

Well then it should depend on the buy-in as well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm a nit , eh ?

[/ QUOTE ]

The setting is $100 NLHE tournament, as stated in the OP.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Alright .

Well then it should depend on the buy-in as well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm a nit , eh ?

[/ QUOTE ]

The setting is $100 NLHE tournament, as stated in the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are too quick . I couldn't edit in time .

Anyway , calling is fine .

You may also want to restrict the responses to players who have played many games at these levels . And that only the posters who respond are knowledgeable about the players for this buy-in . I know Nicho has played more games at this level than probably all of us .

Are you a 100's player? Or is this a random question ?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Alright .

Well then it should depend on the buy-in as well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm a nit , eh ?

[/ QUOTE ]

The setting is $100 NLHE tournament, as stated in the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are too quick . I couldn't edit in time .

Anyway , calling is fine .

You may also want to restrict the responses to players who have played many games at these levels . And that only the posters who respond are knowledgeable about the players for this buy-in . I know Nicho has played more games at this level than probably all of us .

Are you a 100's player? Or is this a random question ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play the 100's, though not as much as I used to. I'm getting back into it though.

I don't really know how I could restrict the voting. Excluding anyone who doesn't play 100's regularly is probably excluding most people in the HU forum (just a guess, but I'd say most play lower). Obviously anyone can follow along and learn a bit. I honestly don't think that's gonna be that big of a problem. There's a lot less noise in the HU forum IMO than most other forums.



Anyways, back to the current hand. Those who voted check, what's your plan for the rest of the hand?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

I love this idea. I hope we get a bunch of hands so people can start to talk about reads.

I voted for check with the intention of check-raising. I think he almost always cbets on such a dry board. It's basically the same idea as leading in my mind only it looks a bit stronger.

I certainly don't want to get called, but I think people tend to play more conservatively before they have reads so you can steal this pot quite often. (Disclaimer: I don't play 100's - so feel free to ignore this or correct me if I'm wrong)

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

While I think this is an awesome idea, if you do an entire match with a poll before every action, isn't this thread going to have hundreds of posts? Even if the match is ~20 hands, there would still be a huge number of posts.

That being said, I'll be following this thread closely.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

@soop: Check-raising is risky, but it can be a good play if we suspect he'll c-bet a lot here, and also that he'll fold most hands he c-bets. Given the flop, I'd say that looks good. I realized shortly after my previous analysis that I didn't even consider a c/r. Considering lines I wouldn't have otherwise taken is one of the two main reasons I started this thread (the other is betsizing).

@somekid: I don't see a problem with there being 200+ posts. I really wanted to have each decision go through a vote and analysis (when appropriate), but I'm now considering auto decisionmaking for the easy stuff (like raising hand 1 pf).

Anyway, moving on with the hand:

Hand 2

(SB)Villain 1480
(BB)Hero 1520

Villain posts 10, Hero posts 20.

Villain raises to t60. Hero has 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero calls.

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (pot 120).
Hero checks. Villain bets t90. Hero?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

I can't bring myself to call down like this this early. This hand is going to be too expensive and we are losing this pot 50% of the time by the river. I would rather donk this than c/c.

Disclaimer: I never ever played a $100 sng.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

Dromar , I prefer calling . You'll get the information you need but at a cheaper price . If he continues ott , then given the flop texture and your call , there is a decent chance he has a piece of it .

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dromar , I prefer calling . You'll get the information you need but at a cheaper price . If he continues ott , then given the flop texture and your call , there is a decent chance he has a piece of it .

[/ QUOTE ]

Strong point. I'd say in this situation, sans read, I almost universally either donk the flop or c/c and re-evaluate on the turn (which usually means c/f). It's very flop dependent of course, but this flop is relatively dry; basically, he's either got a pair or he doesn't, perhaps Q8, otherwise he has at most an inside draw. Which is why I initially voted to bet the flop. Now I think calling to see what happens on the turn is better (than checkraising, I don't know if it's better than betting the flop right out).

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

What the hell is going on here?

It's the first two hands at 10/20. against an unknown. I don't know what to say - I'm not really thinking about "Meta" considerations until hands 10 to 15 and I'm not gonna be taking any big risks/moves until later in the 2nd level, at least, so I don't know where this is going.

I raise hand one because they are suited and pretty and I call hand two because RRing here sucks and then I check/fold.

FINALLY, I think that it would behoove you to post your HH because those are much better to review and you will get good input, if you are so inclined.

Barry

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

I think this thread is a great idea Dromar, and I'll try to follow it as best I can.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell is going on here?

I raise hand one because they are suited and pretty and I call hand two because RRing here sucks and then I check/fold.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this completely. I was really surprised people want to check/call the flop. A flop donkbet I understand, but check/calling just seems to be giving away chips. Even if he checks the turn, are we going to take a shot at the river? If the opponent were a thinking player I could understand this line, but I don't think we can just assume that he is. I'm just uneasy with playing like this so early in the tournament. I voted for check/fold.

disclaimer: I am a complete beginner to HU and haven't played anything close to the 100s

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

To the disclaimer's about not playing 100s:

Pretend the only difference between the 100s and the level you play is that people rarely just open shove random hands early on in the match and they are little more solid in every level. Nothing drastic, but I think that should give you an idea of how to play against the "average" player you'd face at this level.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

So an average player would be slightly < than a solid 20?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

This thread is a great idea. I'll try to follow it. It is so much better than looking through the whole HH and falling asleep.

I voted checkraising. I played a couple of those stakes, and people seem to double barrell a lot. So checkraising probably costs you less money. c/c seems just giving chips away, and c/f seems too weak. If he calls, you obviusly shut down.I rarely bet into preflop raiser, so I don't know how would they respond to a bet. I know that if you bet 75 here, I would raise you.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

There should definitely be more votes for the check-raise option . There is a good argument for all 3 .

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

So the c/r is to get some fold equity on the flop, and if they call we shut down? I didn't think average players folded enough in that spot for our flop c/r to be worth it.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

Yeah, I think this situation will vary a lot (as shown by the voting) based on each of our play styles, and also our perception of the average villain's play style.

But I wanna keep moving here, and I really don't see how we're gonna come to an agreement, since all three options have some amount of reasoning behind them. The leading vote (by just a bit) is folding, and since it's so divided, it couldn't be a terrible option.

Hand 2

(SB)Villain 1480
(BB)Hero 1520

Villain posts 10, Hero posts 20.

Villain raises to t60. Hero has 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero calls.

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (pot 120).
Hero checks. Villain bets t90. Hero folds.

Hand 3

(SB)Hero 1460
(BB)Villain 1540

Hero posts 10, Villain posts 20. Hero has T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

Hand 3

(SB)Hero 1460
(BB)Villain 1540

Hero posts 10, Villain posts 20. Hero has T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero folds.

Hand 4

(BB)Hero 1450
(SB)Villain 1550

Villain posts 10, Hero posts 20. Hero has 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Villain folds.

Hand 5

(SB)Hero 1460
(BB)Villain 1540

Hero posts 10. Villain posts 20. Hero has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero raises to 60. Villain calls.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (pot 120).

Villain checks. Hero?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

I follow the concensus, but i bet 100 not 90 with that AT hand.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

Dromar, how do you determine the cards and action?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

Phill, I agree, 4/5 or 5/6 PSB def is a better choice IMO. PSB and 3/4 is less valuable( as to concern to our c-bets)
And I disagree with cr with 33 on flop against unknown villain( I play NL50, but don't see how much better they are at NL100). I think, the won't define their hand much by folding to our cr or calling, I mean, they'll float more than we want. And donking IMO is not good enough either, check-folding second hand is fine.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

@fliff: The cards are determined just by a regular deck of cards next to my computer. These are just regular hands being dealt out. Villain's actions are controlled by an acquaintance of mine to whom I relay the Villain's side of the game. He's been instructed not to visit this thread, and I trust that he won't. The only one who knows both player's cards is myself.

Hand 5

(SB)Hero 1460
(BB)Villain 1540

Hero posts 10. Villain posts 20. Hero has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero raises to 60. Villain calls.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (pot 120).

Villain checks. Hero bets 90. Villain calls.

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (pot 300).

Villain checks. Hero?

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

I don't understand why people are voting for checking this turn. It seems to me that we want to bet, as villain could have a weaker ace or a draw. I realize a king is a possibility, but betting seems like the best option to me. Perhaps someone could explain why everyone is voting for checking.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

Who the heck folds 10-6 otb ?

This is getting to be a bit of a joke .

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why people are voting for checking this turn. It seems to me that we want to bet, as villain could have a weaker ace or a draw. I realize a king is a possibility, but betting seems like the best option to me. Perhaps someone could explain why everyone is voting for checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

He will bluff often enough with a weaker ace(or something else) to make checking the better option . In other words , even though occasionally you'll get outdrawn by checking , there will be times when he bets the river with a worse hand than yours which compensates for it . Betting also puts you in a difficult position if you get raised .

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

I bet around 200 on the turn, because I know that most of the people I'm playing are calling with any ace, any 6, any 2 clubs, any king, and most pocket pairs. Many of them will also call with QJ and JT.

Of all those hands that will call, only hands that have us beat and a few of the lower aces are going to bet, and the rest are likely to check behind. I think there's too much value, and too many scarecards that can come on the river that will shut our opponent out with hands we're beating, to pass up on a bet here.

And I don't mind chasing out potential bluffs. I'm probably going to have to fold to a big enough bluff here, so I don't really want to get bluffed at.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I bet around 200 on the turn, because I know that most of the people I'm playing are calling with any ace, any 6, any 2 clubs, any king, and most pocket pairs. Many of them will also call with QJ and JT.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how I feel about it as well. But I'm used to weaker opponents.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet around 200 on the turn, because I know that most of the people I'm playing are calling with any ace, any 6, any 2 clubs, any king, and most pocket pairs. Many of them will also call with QJ and JT.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how I feel about it as well. But I'm used to weaker opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are faced with a much tougher decision on the river if he flat calls your turn bet. Pot is now 600 or so and you most likely have to check/call.

Check the turn, let him bluff, and get to a relatively cheap showdown.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

Hero has position Hokie, not sure if you realize that but from the tone of your post you do.

It's going to be fairly obvious if he has you beat on the turn and you lose too much value against most opponents to check here. Weaker hands catch up to you too often and there are obviously some hands ahead of you already, making a turn check (aka asking for a river bluff a good % of the time from most weak villains) too dangerous imo. We're sacrificing our value on the turn and pushing villain towards making a more correct play.

In my experience this turn is rarely bluffed if we bet here. When it is we usually already know the type of player we are facing and we're approaching this hand with a different mindset/goal.

Re: Play a hand with me (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero has position Hokie, not sure if you realize that but from the tone of your post you do.

It's going to be fairly obvious if he has you beat on the turn and you lose too much value against most opponents to check here. Weaker hands catch up to you too often and there are obviously some hands ahead of you already, making a turn check (aka asking for a river bluff a good % of the time from most weak villains) too dangerous imo. We're sacrificing our value on the turn and pushing villain towards making a more correct play.

In my experience this turn is rarely bluffed if we bet here. When it is we usually already know the type of player we are facing and we're approaching this hand with a different mindset/goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont know why i thought we were oop but i did

im sure my post made you lol ry

disregard my advice, now and forever [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]