Law School Application Time
 

I figure around now is about the time to start my applications. I know there are other threads about the whole law life - this is not to bash/praise law school or the practise of law. This thread is specifically for questions about applying to law school.

Here are some of my questions for the experts.

1. I have a 3.62 GPA and 165 LSAT. I am graduating this year from a supposedly intensive program at a good school in Canada (UBC Commerce). Looking at the US News Rankings, I seem to be around the 25th percentile for acceptance in both categories for schools ranked around 8-12. I don't have any special circumstances like socioeconomic disadvantage and I'm not a minority. I have a reasonable amount of extracurriculars/volunteer work/work experience. Do I have a reasonable shot at getting into a school such as Cornell or Berkley (or better)? Or should I not waste my money applying?

2. How important is the personal statement? What should really go in there? Most schools say the topic is entirely up to me. Currently I just have a narrative of why I chose law, why I would be a good fit, and a bit about my extracurriculars. It seems a little dry and boring though - is this going to be a problem? If anyone wanted to read my statement and give me tips, that would be amazing.

3. How important are the recommendation letters? I was never really close to any of my profs, and none know me that well. I have two that agreed to write letters, but I really don't know how much they will have to say about me. Is this going to have a large impact?

4. Just a procedure question - my recommendation letters might take a while to get submitted (maybe by mid dec or so). Should I submit the rest of my applications to the assorted schools through LSAC now, or wait until those are in?

Any other tips/advice for applications would be awesome.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

1. http://officialguide.lsac.org/UGPASe...spx?SidString= This is a good way to figure out your approximate chances at schools. If you don't get into a school with a national reputation, go where you want to live and where it's the cheapest cost after scholarships.


2. Personal Statement is important if you are borderline. How you describe your PS is what most people write and probably won't hurt you.

3. Letters are less important than the PS, still might matter if you are borderline.

4. Yeah, go ahead and apply. The school won't consider you until your lsac package is complete i.e. your letters are in.

The bottom line is your LSAT and GPA will (probably) determine where you get in unless you are an under-represented minority. Also check out this forum and repost this IMO. http://www.top-law-schools.com/

Re: Law School Application Time
 

1. You are making a 6 figure investment. Don't let a $50 fee deter you if you have a shot, even if that shot is minimal. GPA is solid, 165 is good, but nothing to write home about. I've posted before that I had a 3.6 and a 172 and I got into two of the top 15 schools. Remember that numbers are slightly skewed when you remove minorities and those with advanced degrees, etc. from the equation.

For a more realistic view, go to lawschoolnumbers.com and fill in your info for various schools (remember to exclude minorities). I'm not sure how being from Canada impacts things, or what your school's average GPA is.

Do you have a strong preference for coast or where you want to be after graduation? This doesn't matter as much for top schools, but will be a deciding factor further down the line. So Yale places awesome anywhere in the country, but for example, U of Texas might be #18 but don't tell me they place better in Boston than BC/BU.

I think your target should be schools like Georgetown, Cornell, UCLA. Reaches should be Yale, Harvard, NYU, Chiago, Columbia, Penn, etc. (you get the idea) and safe bets/likely would be BC, BU, GW, Fordham, UC-Hastings.

2. Not very important at all. Write about your favorite trip. Best childhood memory. Why you want to be a lawyer. Doesn't matter a great deal except when you're on borderline, unless you have some tearjerker story or something.

3. Same as #2. Probably don't matter a great deal unless they're actually negative or your professor is an alum of the school and speaks very highly of you.

Basically most places are 95%+ of GPA/LSAT. Rest doesn't matter as much.

4. Send it in now. As soon as they get anything they create a file on you, so don't worry about stuff getting lost. Then, as soon as they get your recs, the file will be labeled complete and will be reviewed.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. You are making a 6 figure investment. Don't let a $50 fee deter you if you have a shot, even if that shot is minimal. GPA is solid, 165 is good, but nothing to write home about. I've posted before that I had a 3.6 and a 172 and I got into two of the top 15 schools. Remember that numbers are slightly skewed when you remove minorities and those with advanced degrees, etc. from the equation.


[/ QUOTE ]

When you say you got into 2 of the top 15, does that mean you applied to all of them? That would surprise me a little, as with scores like that, it would seem you would get at least a little more. Also, what was your degree and from where, and how much do those things factor in?

One other thing they say about personal statements is include anything that may have detracted or contributed to your GPA. A large percentage of most of my courses are based on group work (anywhere from 20-70% of my final grade). I made a brief comment about this, and how I found the group experience valuable, but don't think my GPA necessarily reflects what I'm capable of individually. Is this a good idea, or does it sound like I'm making excuses?

Edit: oh, and I would definitely prefer west coast, or generally someplace warm.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

Scotty,

1. I'd leave any GPA comments/excuses for an addendum and personally I think these should only be included if the reason is sickness or the death of a family member or something else major. I wouldn't include any comments on this in the personal statement, be confident about your 3.6

I majored in Psych which I don't think won me any points, but it wasn't a big detractor either. Law schools will get the GPA average of your school and your major, so if you have a 3.9 but the average is 3.8 that will obviously not impress as much as a 3.6 where average was a 3.0. Prestige of school certainly matters, and again, I don't think mine gave me a boost or hurt me. I did an internship at a small firm in college, did 3 years of mock trial and a year of moot court, but again, the impact of this stuff is minimal.


I got a lot of fee waivers so I applied to like ten of the top `15. Got into two. got waitlisted at two and didn't pursue them further. Rest were rejections.

I ended up going for BC with a pretty sizable scholarship and it has worked out for me thus far. Ended up at the firm I liked best in the city I want to be in long term, saving $100k over some higher ranked schools.

3. Cornell....someplace warm...does not compute.


Some searches on law school numbers for people with LSAT of 164-166 and GPA of 3.5-3.7...



Berkeley 21 rejected 0 accepted.

Cornell
4 accepted, 9 rejected, 1 waitlisted





UC-Hastings 16 accepted, 1 rejected


BC 15 accepted, 9 rejected, 7 waitlisted.



(above excluded URM)

Re: Law School Application Time
 

just fire off the applications dude, you never know where you'll get into. I got into my top 2 choices, but got waitlisted at my last choice. go fig.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

[ QUOTE ]
just fire off the applications dude, you never know where you'll get into. I got into my top 2 choices, but got waitlisted at my last choice. go fig.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got a full scholarship from Temple (USNEWS rank 60) and got waitlisted by Villanova (USNEWS rank also 60).

Re: Law School Application Time
 

Well, my school's GPA mean is 3.08 according to my Academic Summary Report on LSAC. The whole GPA system is pretty unfamiliar to me, as we work with percentages instead usually. So this fact works in my favor?

Also, I will be getting a 4.0 in all likelihood this final year (I only have 3 courses/9 credits per semester left to graduate). Any way I can take advantage of this as schools probably won't be viewing my final grades.

As for the Cornell/someplace warm thing, that is a result of a guest speaker today. He was actually speaking for my entrepreneurship class, but he was an NYU masters of law graduate, so he knew a fair bit about all that. I got to speak with him briefly after class. My original plan was to just accept a decent scholarship to a nice place like San Diego or Arizona State or something, and consider somewhere like USC or Berkeley if I happened to get in. He convinced me that I really should be going to the best possible school I can get into. I know its just one guy's opinion, but what he was telling me made a lot of sense.

So basically, yea now I'm looking into applying to a lot more of the top schools instead of just a couple in nice areas that I might luck into.

Also, reading around some of those links you guys posted, I read some more about the personal statements. From what I have read, it actually seems extremely important for someone in my position. There are a ton of candidates in the same area as me of 3.6/165 or so. It is that essay that can set me apart. Does this seem accurate, or is this more just because these sites are trying to sell me editing packages?

Re: Law School Application Time
 

if you don't go to a top school, go to the market you want to work in. it's tough to get a job out of market.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

Scotty,

In the end, it really doesn't matter. Do your best on the personal statement, but don't go nuts. I wouldn't mine reading it over and offering some suggestions if you like (PM me for e-mail address). You're right in that it doesn't mean much until your on the edge and then it can mean everything, so trying to pin down some value is kind of a lost cause. As long as it is 100% error free, well written, and gets a point across, it will be good. Unless you have some singular life event that will make the reader go "wow" then it probably won't make or break you.

I think that for most people the "best school you get into is great advice." Everyone can say that they'll take the money and just kick ass at a lower-ranked school, but you're going to be going to school with a lot of people with that same mindset. I'm in top 10% of my class, on law review, and I'm going on a lot of the same interviews as people in the bottom 1/4 at Harvard, middle of the class at Columbia, etc. Sometimes I am happy that I made the best of my situation and did well, other times it sucks that I did basically as good as possible at my school and someone who basically failed at a top school has the same opportunities. Plus, your school name will follow you throughout your career.


Even if you limit yourself to warm weather schools there are plenty that are good options for you, and given the strength of your GPA (now that I see the average) should do well. If you really think you're going to get a 4.0 this year, and going to a top school is big for you, then maybe take a year off, retake the LSAT, and reapply with that 3.75 and 170 or whatever it ends up being.

If you want to limit yourself to warm weather, still plenty of awesome options.

Stanford, all the UC schools, USC, Texas, UNC, Emory, etc.


I forget, where did you want to practice again?

Re: Law School Application Time
 

Noah, maybe I should of PM'd you this, because I don't want to take away from OP, but this might be useful information. It's related to this statement...


"One other thing they say about personal statements is include anything that may have detracted or contributed to your GPA."

Should you include this? And if you SHOULD, how to you go about doing this? For instance, I attended Ohio State for my first 2 years. Transfered out of there because I was partying to much, not getting school work done, being unhealthy, etc. I transfered back home to live with my parents because I truly did want to work, and get better grades. Obviously I can't be like, I drank way to much so I transfered, and now you can tell my GPA is better, but I also don't want them to think I'm spitting out BS...
(If it's important, my GPA at ohio state was 3.1, now I go to Cincinnati, and its around a 3.7, but I still have around 2 years left)


I want to practice in LA or NY, right now USC and UCLA are on top of my list (if this matters)

Re: Law School Application Time
 

burko,

they get your full transcript and will see the upward grade trend, but it never hurts to attach an addendum. I think including it in your PS statement is bad just because it detracts from whatever story you are trying to tell. Even if your PS is about similar topics, putting the grade info in a separate addendum is probably the best way.

A lot of apps have a specific provision that says soemthing like "if there is anything else you'd like to tell us/ comment on/ explain" then do so here. I'm not sure how your transcript looks given the transfer, but I think it'd be fine to attach something that focuses on your recent grade excellence. dont even bother with the negatives. Just something where the gist is "Since my transfer I rededicated myself to my studies and the grades from that point forward are an accurate reflection of my abilities". It will also help if you have an LSAT score to back this up.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

Noah,

You almost inspire to me to wish I had tried to go that route of law school and all that. I really am not sure why, but every time I read one of your posts about your schooling, I get that feeling.

Of course sometimes I wish I was on my way through med school, too.

Instead I'm going to be a lowly English teacher. Holla.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

OP see you at UT next year.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

Reading some of those TLS forums and this Yale Law Journal article was posted: How not to succeed in law school

http://ww3.lawschool.cornell.edu/fac...donarticle.pdf

I found it absolutely hilarious, and somewhat enlightening.

a couple of gems from it

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of what the LSAT people say, however, you will notice that there are several suspiciously solvent LSAT prep course companies who are happy to take your money. Of course, you can always choose to "go bare" and take the LSAT without any prep course at all. People who have done this in the past are called "nonlawyers."

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Studies have shown that the best way to learn is to have frequent exams on small amounts of material and to receive lots of feedback from the teacher. Consequently, law school does none of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
How many Chicago Law professors does it take to screw in a light bulb?
None, the market will take care of itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Received an F-minus in my class. Giving this person an F would have been unfair to the people who failed normally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Law School Application Time
 

Awesome article, though i am a little unhappy that I am now 30 minutes off of my "outline for contracts" schedule.

BTW, I am the only one at the law school right now, and I am scared that Frankenstein is going to come crashing through the doors any second now. How can I slow him down if he does come? THIS IS A SERIOUS QUESTION I AM FREAKING OUT OMGGG!!!

Re: Law School Application Time
 

XxGodJrxX,

Offer
Acceptance


Mailbox Rule



There, your contracts outline is done.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

We didn't really go over the mailbox rule in this class [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

My outline looks more like: offer/acceptance, consideration, remedies, interpretation, breach.

I have offer/acceptance and consideration finished. It's only six or seven pages. I just looked at some outlines online, and those two sections are three times longer in all three outlines I looked at... WHO IS DOING IT WRONG?

Re: Law School Application Time
 

meh, it's very possible that neither of you are doing it "wrong," as you really have to find what works for you and that often will not be what works for others. most of my outlines were only 20-25 pages max, and i did very well first year. (pretty much every outline i saw online was significantly longer than what i had). i know people that would have 100-page outlines, and others that would have 5-page outlines.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

The mailbox rule should be a subset of offer/acceptance imo.
My contracts is looking like damages, consideration, unilateral/bilateral, offer/acceptance, battle of forms.

Anyway, so that's Contracts. How about Property, Torts, and Civil Procedure? Especially Civil Procedure, that class makes me want to die.

I'm pretty much gambling that the final contains a lot of stuff about Desktop Tower Defense and/or basic SNG strategy. Certainly not anything about Rule 19 or section 1367.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

My schedule is Torts, Contracts, Criminal, Professional Responsibility, and Legal Research/Writing.

Easier than yours eh? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Law School Application Time
 

Civil Procedure was the most boring class I've ever taken.

Civil Procedure is the only class that practicing litigators have told me is useful.

This frightens me.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

yeah like 80% of my assignments this summer were procedural or in the gray area b/w substantive and procedural, but they were more interesting than my civ pro class and wayyyyyy more interesting than the two corporate assignments I did

Re: Law School Application Time
 

i enjoyed civ. pro., but only because i liked the prof.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

apply everywhere.. if you need a safety, in your situation you are a shoe-in for University of Maryland (which also is a pretty good school)

Re: Law School Application Time
 

[ QUOTE ]
Civil Procedure was the most boring class I've ever taken.

Civil Procedure is the only class that practicing litigators have told me is useful.

This frightens me.

[/ QUOTE ]

man i loved civ pro. part of this may have been because i kind of felt like a superstar in the class, because i'd been working at a civil law firm for every summer i was in undergrad, and doing a fair bit of research. but i really liked the content as well. i guess it's just different strokes... crim bored the hell out of me.

actually, while i've not thought about law school in some time other than with a sort of loathing glance backwards, thinking about civ pro and just like... the civil litigation game, that i came to really enjoy watching/participating in during those few summers, has me feeling a bit wistful.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

also, to actually respond to the op, noah is right that you should not limit yourself due to application price. borrow money from parents, do whatever you have to do, but this is one of the bigger investments you'll make in your life (and probably the biggest one you've made yet), so don't like a few hundred bucks deter you from giving yourself every possible opportunity.

actually, just listen to noah about all these questions. he knows what hes talking about. i think basically the LoRs and PSs, if they are REALLY good, can make a difference, and if you are a really marginal decision for a school, can make a difference... but typically its going to be a gpa+lsat+demographic calculation, with a few people falling on the bubble and a few people who get accepted just because they have a great life story/great recommendation. i know that in my case i had a great LoR that helped me get into schools that maybe i shouldnt have with my gpa/lsat/demographic (2.9, 164, white male from the east coast), but its not as though i suddenly got into nyu (although they had a very nice letter of rejection) (i had to apply to at least one absurd reach, right?).

Re: Law School Application Time
 

I don't mean to hijack but I was wondering if anyone can answer this question:
How much weight does being a minority have? If there is any general guideline, or if it's been answered before, please send me the link. Thanks.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

it is worth 7 LSAT points and .2 GPA

Re: Law School Application Time
 

[ QUOTE ]
it is worth 7 LSAT points and .2 GPA

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the minority though. Native American is the best!

Re: Law School Application Time
 

As far as urms, do they take into account wether you were poor, middle class, upper class, etc?

Would a large gap in your undergrad schooling be really bad? Like maybe 4 or 5 years off before going back and graduating?

Re: Law School Application Time
 

FWIW I had a 162 and a ~3.6 in biology and Berkeley was a reach for me, didn't get in. Also didn't get into UCLA, which I would've loved to.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW I had a 162 and a ~3.6 in biology and Berkeley was a reach for me, didn't get in. Also didn't get into UCLA, which I would've loved to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been reading the forums on top-law-schools.com a bunch lately, and they seem to really know what they are talking about over there. Being a white male with a 3.6/165 and no exceptional story, my chances at Berkeley are next to 0 according to them. UCLA is even considered to be a reach for me.

I'm now considering waiting a year to apply. My senior year grades could boost my GPA as high as 3.75, and considering I put a grand total of about 10 hours into LSAT prep, I'm quite certain I could raise that score significantly too. Plus another year of work experience or possibly travelling the world couldn't hurt. Think I will apply to some schools this year, and take it if I get any really good offers, but otherwise wait and not lower myself to a T-50 or something when I know I could be good enough to do T-14.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

Scotty,

If I were you, I'd hold off for a year and retake LSAT. The way you describe things, this year you seem likely candidate for a Rank 20-50 school, whereas you could boost your grades, boost your LSAT and then either go to a much better school or at least get some free $$$ for going to a non-top school.

Re: Law School Application Time
 

You should think twice before going to law school. It's a lot of tuition money for 3 years of grilling.

Do more research! http://lawschooladvice.blogspot.com/

Re: Law School Application Time
 

Required reading before going to law school

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119040786780835602.html

Re: Law School Application Time
 

Looks like Mr. Bullock is going to be looking for a job soon!

Re: Law School Application Time
 

Alright, not to be a massive arrogant dick(as I'm still in my first semester and posting on 2p2 instead of doing work so all this stuff below may very well apply to me in 2.5 years), but from my experience at a borderline Tier 1 school the issue is that some significant percentage of the students here are morons(e.g. again, me). Of course no one will want to hire a random moron and pay him $120k. Morons who are related to you are another story, but I really don't think someone who finished in the bottom quartile at UofHouston should be on easy street.

Loyola-LA is what, like the 7th best law school in California(which has like 10 Tier 2 and better law schools and and roughly a billion TTTs)? No [censored] you aren't going to get a good job unless you excel there, you've got to compete with all the graduates from the better schools and then all the people who excelled at the worse schools.

That one woman is having trouble after having graduated from "second-tier Chicago-Kent College of Law, one of six law schools in the Chicago area. Despite graduating near the top half of her class..". Wow, what a surprise. Did the other 5 law schools become accredited after her enrollment?

Re: Law School Application Time
 

[ QUOTE ]
Required reading before going to law school

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119040786780835602.html

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm much too prestigious to read an article with this title

Re: Law School Application Time
 

I have question that I can not find a concrete answer for. How do law school admissions weigh GPAs and majors? I have heard they check your GPA vs. your school's average GPA for that major, is this true? Also, is there any benefit to applying with a mathematics or philosphy major over something like sociology?