AK...fear of commitment
 

Common situation, should be obvious, but what you think?

CO was 26/13/1.1 over 62 hands, FWIW he paused before calling preflop.

UTG is very loose.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($69.10)
CO ($37.25)
Button ($29.85)
SB ($25)
BB ($24.50)
UTG ($35.45)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, CO calls $1, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG (poster) calls $0.75.

Flop: ($3.10) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2.2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $9.7</font>, UTG folds, Hero ...

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

It may be nitty but I can find a fold here, but I suck with TPTK OOP when raised on the flop. You're 150BBs deep and CO just made a pot sized raise, looks like he wants to play for stacks here, and this is KJ/JJ/33 way more than it is KQ.

Small sample obv, but he's not very aggressive, so it's less likely to be QT.

Presence of UTG behind him still to act makes this much less likely to be a bluff.

Given 3 way pot, I like betting a bit more on the flop too.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

Ye I like full-potting this flop. Would he really raise the set like this with someone still to act or try to keep him in? Would he reraise the Jacks preflop?

If the answers to the above are likely no and yes, then:

IMO, this looks much more like KQ or KJ...there's already a jack, 3 combos gone KQ more likely...even though he's past his commitment threshold, I'd personally still call this and see what happens on the turn. Personally, the AG stat doesn't mean that much, especially with such a small sample size.

If I had a read on his current playing this session and it looked dodgy, folding here isn't that big of a deal.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

What about checking that dry flop?

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

^^^Seems results oriented. Why would you want to check a 3way flop with TPTK? There's two broadway cards, not really a ragged board.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

I tend to agree that this ends up 33/JJ/KJ more often than not. Is the other player observant? If you're playing very TAG, calling preflop with JJ rather than raising isn't out of the question. KJ would call preflop, so would KQ, but I doubt someone's going to stack off with that. QT might play like that, but I doubt you'll lose a whole lot of sleep by folding this.

(keep in mind I'm an ultra-new poster, so take everything I say with a grain of salt!)

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

[ QUOTE ]
What about checking that dry flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not bad against one opponent acting after you who was aggressive and would bluff at it...in this case IMO, full-potting is probably best.

Edit: Then again there are reasonable drawing possiblities in his range, I'd still bet this board as it's not THAT dry.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

Yeh, checking prolly sucks. Even so, what are we hoping to gain by betting, besides protection? We have good equity and there aren't too many draws.

Checking also looks suspicious, possibly putting an observant opponent into WA/WB mode. That's good for our one-pair hand, as it invokes both pot control and reluctance to fold, no?

I don't know. Could be over thinking it.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

Betting 3/4 to full pot is definitely the right play here. I think a fold here is probably best but in reality I might call and see what happens on the turn. These are the kinds of hands that after you play you should (at least i do) immediately take notes on Villain to see if he is C/ring with tpgk or if he is doing it with big hands like sets etc.
Most villains would smooth call with a set at the micros, its really important to find out Villain usually plays big hands compared to weaker hands, this is pretty easy to do at the micros.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

There's just so many hands that have hero beat right here; I'm looking for players who will call this bet with AK, aren't you?

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeh, checking prolly sucks. Even so, what are we hoping to gain by betting, besides protection? We have good equity and there aren't too many draws.

Checking also looks suspicious, possibly putting an observant opponent into WA/WB mode. That's good for our one-pair hand, as it invokes both pot control and reluctance to fold, no?

I don't know. Could be over thinking it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting would fold out set-fishers. You'd get calls from KQ, QT, T9, maybe even QJ or KT depending. UTG is even less likely to have much, consdering he open posted blinds then simply could've felt compelled to complete cause he's a moron who couldn't wait for blinds to reach him next hand.

Villian's calling range could be even looser considering he's in position, and if your cbet% is high he might float...lots of great reasons to bet.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

SHIP IT!

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

Not betting this flop would be criminal.

His raise is pretty damn big... does he really do this with a set? Maybe. Looks like KJ/KQ, maybe QT but he doesn't seem aggro enough for that. I'd probably call and re-eval on turn.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

I like the fold myself and I think overall it was played well (stayed under committment threshhold, seemed to have a reasonable plan, let it go with new info)....BUT here is my question...

Are we giving this guy too much credit? I think most if not all of us have read PNL by now as the ideas seem to be permeating a lot of recent posts (I think it is pretty good myself) and based on what I have been reading in these posts we may even be getting a handle on it. How many people who are not 2+2er's have read it / learned it? Are we applying our thoughts on play to other players incorrectly? I was thinking about this the other day and came to the conclusion, THERE ARE CLEARLY STILL DONKS OUT THERE. I am not suggesting this is the case here (again, I think it was played pretty well as is), but I guess I might be throwing out the caution that we should not assume that everyone out there understands committment / pot management / maximization. To me, this looks like a guy who has a medium to strong made hand and is scared to death that he is going to be drawn out on....unless something has happened recently at this table to support that players are willing to call relatively large pot sized raises and he feels he can take 1 or 2 stacks.

As a group, let's make sure we don't personify our opponents to our way of thinking....they just may not be doing it.

Fammy

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

I think you'll see king jack a lot here.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

Why does everyone go put on a dress the minute they get raised with TPTK?

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

The problem is that in the interest of exploiting donks, are we willing to become donks ourselves by over committing with TPTK? I mean, if you call this bet, do you really think he's going to go into a shell? He's basically pot committed. He's gonna bet, unless he catches a major scare card. If he bets again on the turn, do you fold?

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

What cards are we hoping for on the turn? An ace or king and thats about it. If a blank comes, do we bet out or check/call. It just seems like every situation is gonna put you in a tough spot. I dont like the call and re-eval line usually, especially OOP.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why does everyone go put on a dress the minute they get raised with TPTK?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of all the times we've overplayed it and lost huge pots. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

Carrotsnake once told me that TPTK is the nuts. I believe him.


The serious key to playing TPTK is to identify a second best hand and see if thats reasonable and not worry about monsters under the bed. And additionally one raise on the flop should not be leaving you to fold this. Thats really exploitable. I like to raise a lot of flops in position with draws or if I sense some weakness from a non donk player.

TPTK is a much stronger hand at uNL then people are giving credit for. Remember, the same donk that sucked out with A2 against you KK? He loved that TPNK. Hes still around.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

Fammy has a very good point. I think MOST players out there are donk's and I think a lot of times 2+2ers overestimate their competition.

Look at ME! I don't know what PNL is and have to look it up (I'm a limit player re-tooling) and I have been around a long long time!

This is a hand I have overplayed a LOT and one of the things I have found is that when somebody REALLY wants to pot - it's a good idea to give it to them when I only have top pair!

How often have you NOT given it to them and lost.

Unless some guy has proven he is willing to put in big raises with less then TPTK I'll give him the benefit of the doubt - THIS time.

However I'll make a VERY big note on his future play!

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

EMc I really don't like a fold either, but I'm not sure what else to do. What do we do if we call? c/c turn and river? If we bet again he might reraise all-in. Do you advocate a push? Or is that no good because only hands that beat us will call?

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

[ QUOTE ]
EMc I really don't like a fold either, but I'm not sure what else to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

ship it on the flop all day long baby!

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

Flop is relatively dry so there is no need to shove here....or fold. Why we think he cant do this with a weaker king is something I guess I am missing. I call this and see what he does on the turn. If he fires another big bet then I am probably going to give up if he fires a smaller one, I will probably call that too.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

I also usually call the flop raise here and try to call down to showdown cheaply.

EMc: What are your thoughts on a hand like this?

25nl, 6max

Hero is dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP

Preflop:
fold,fold, Hero raises to .85, BTN calls .85

Flop: ($2) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero leads $2, villain raises to $8, Hero ???

In hands like this I feel like there aren't a lot of "2nd best" hands that raise other than A9, maybe T9/98. There aren't too many draws out there either.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why does everyone go put on a dress the minute they get raised with TPTK?

[/ QUOTE ]
b/c most of the competition at microstakes is incredibly passive

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

I don't want to play for stacks 150bb deep TPTK without a read here. I'm a nit and I fold here.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is relatively dry so there is no need to shove here....or fold. Why we think he cant do this with a weaker king is something I guess I am missing. I call this and see what he does on the turn. If he fires another big bet then I am probably going to give up if he fires a smaller one, I will probably call that too.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you're calling the flop, you should most likely be calling the turn and river (as long as the board doesn't get too scary). That said, I don't know - no one is very aggro at 25NL. Call me weak, but I let him have this one and see if he does this frequently.

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

z,

No reads?

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

Hero is in a tough situation. Make your best guess and go with it.

fwiw a couple of things here to think about. Look at this from the opponent's perspective. If you will fold this a lot, he can just raise every time. If he's subtle and only does it 1/4 the time, then unless you play him a lot you won't catch on easily and will fold. Huge steal equity for him.

Also, sometimes you would check this to defend your other checks. If they can punk you every time you check, you got problems. You can get around that by c-betting a lot, which you should do if they'll fold X% (percentages will be given in PNL2 along with some theory [censored]). Or you can defend your check line by checking with some good hands. In micro I'd just bet it, but against stronger opponents you want to think about this stuff.

Matt

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

[ QUOTE ]


The serious key to playing TPTK is to identify a second best hand and see if thats reasonable and not worry about monsters under the bed.



[/ QUOTE ]

So, we've identified KQ as a 'reasonable' second best, what now?

If we're going to fold to a raise, but we just have to show it down, why not check it?

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why does everyone go put on a dress the minute they get raised with TPTK?

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

[ QUOTE ]
What about checking that dry flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking is absolutely a valid option. And in fact, often when you're in a NL situation where being raised would make you very uncomfortable, consider the possibility of NOT BETTING. Pretty simple, right?

You love betting when you don't care about getting raised (e.g., you have the nuts, or you have some janky @ss garbage hand, or - (bottom line) you know whether you're committed or not).

Re: AK...fear of commitment
 

[ QUOTE ]
I also usually call the flop raise here and try to call down to showdown cheaply.

EMc: What are your thoughts on a hand like this?

25nl, 6max

Hero is dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP

Preflop:
fold,fold, Hero raises to .85, BTN calls .85

Flop: ($2) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero leads $2, villain raises to $8, Hero ???

In hands like this I feel like there aren't a lot of "2nd best" hands that raise other than A9, maybe T9/98. There aren't too many draws out there either.

[/ QUOTE ]
Arrr eeen. This flop looks like it missed your hand. His range is anything from air, to a flush draw, to top pair who doesn't want a KQJ or A to come off, to a lower pair, or its a set. Maybe, very unlikely, it is AA or KK. You are ahead so often, put your money in, stackadonk