FT200 Puking in the river
 

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $133.10
MP: $203
CO: $475.85
BTN: $493.60
Hero (SB): $198
BB: $200

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $7</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $24</font>, BB folds, MP calls $17

Flop: ($50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $34</font>, MP calls $34

Turn: ($118) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, MP checks

River: ($118) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">MP bets $145 and is All-In</font>, Hero planned to c/f but is now timing out and puking...


Villain is 32/24/1.5/37 and plays 3 tables of 1/2.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

I would blocking bet this river most of the time to get showdown w/ like AJ and just so I know where I'm at in the hand.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

Don't you think AJ makes a light valuebet himself?

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

Tough, I think his low AF makes this quite a tough call.. odd for him to bluff shove the river and not just bet $100.

I think I call just cos we under-repped so much and have TP in a 3b pot, but I really dont expect to be good too often :s

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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Tough, I think his low AF makes this quite a tough call..

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AF is meaningless over this sample.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

You planned to c/f the river? wowlol

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

i assume that you're thinking is that such a large bet is either the nuts or air?

If Villain is good, then fold. Unless you think Villain is good enough to turn a pair into a bluff, but even then would he really shove...wouldn't he just make a 3/4-pot size bet?

If Villain is bad, then you still need to suggest a hand that is bluffing the river...86?

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

I bet this turn 100%. This inordinate fear of turning your hand into a bluff in 3-bet pots is becoming more cliche and overused than pot control. I would barrel the turn with alot more than an ace as well, since it's just such a nice scare card. I'll leave the tough decisions up to villain.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

bet the turn. as played, i think you have to call as you played it so weak up to now

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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i think you have to call as you played it so weak up to now

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That alone is not enough reason to justify a call.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

What do we think villain has to make this a call guys????? We sure did play it weak but I can't see what villain calls the flop with and decides to overshove river with that we beat.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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Tough, I think his low AF makes this quite a tough call.. odd for him to bluff shove the river and not just bet $100.

I think I call just cos we under-repped so much and have TP in a 3b pot, but I really dont expect to be good too often :s

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Gibberish.
I dont understand y ur not betting the turn... as played id fold the river against most opponents. He'd have to be overbet bluffing with 108s or J10s for u to be good IMO (I dont think he ever overbet shoves for value with worse), however.... if u think that hed shove a fd in a 3bet pot on the flop (very possible although its also possible hed smoothcall because he has position) than u have to look him up IMO since hes betting the turn with two pair or better almost always and that 3 couldnt have changed anything so hed have been drawing to a straight. So, what i'm saying is that I think given the turn and river play he almost always has a draw, straight draw missed and is the more likely one for cold calling the flop since its disguised, but.... flush hit and he couldve cold called flop in position and now that it hit and he overbet shoves i'd fold and make a note that he might rep flushes with missed straight draws and overbet them. Once again though, get it in on the turn.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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bet the turn. as played, i think you have to call as you played it so weak up to now

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I cant stand these statements - provide a range and plzzzz dont tell me that he ever ever has AJ here. If hes value betting we r definitely behind.


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i assume that you're thinking is that such a large bet is either the nuts or air?

If Villain is good, then fold. Unless you think Villain is good enough to turn a pair into a bluff, but even then would he really shove...wouldn't he just make a 3/4-pot size bet?

If Villain is bad, then you still need to suggest a hand that is bluffing the river...86?

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if villain is pretty good and therefore capable of bluff overbetting with a missed straight draw then id call fwiw. I dont think he is though since he should probably be shoving the flop with most of his draws and almost certainly betting the turn with them unless hero is a habitual turn trapper.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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bet the turn. as played, i think you have to call as you played it so weak up to now

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I cant stand these statements - provide a range and plzzzz dont tell me that he ever ever has AJ here. If hes value betting we r definitely behind.


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i assume that you're thinking is that such a large bet is either the nuts or air?

If Villain is good, then fold. Unless you think Villain is good enough to turn a pair into a bluff, but even then would he really shove...wouldn't he just make a 3/4-pot size bet?

If Villain is bad, then you still need to suggest a hand that is bluffing the river...86?

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if villain is pretty good and therefore capable of bluff overbetting with a missed straight draw then id call fwiw. I dont think he is though since he should probably be shoving the flop with most of his draws and almost certainly betting the turn with them unless hero is a habitual turn trapper.

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if i were villain i would suspect he had something like QQ, JJ or TT that has showdown value, or nothing. i wouldn't put him on an ace. indeed this is the reason nielsio checked behind imo (if it was for any other reason, then it is awful). so i would pretty much be betting my whole range that has no showdown value here.

of course villain could also be valuebetting with a set, 2 pair, a flush, or w/e. but i think we are good enough to call

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

The river is incredibly marginal. Hero likely has a crappy image due his style, he played the hand poorly and now has an incredibly difficult decision. IMO, there is not enough information to make an even remotely reasonable decision. This would depend so heavily on history, bet timing, game flow, blah..

And trying to give a range for villain here is just silly. Villain is bluffing or has hero crushed. There's no telling if he decided to float the flop planning to bluff a later street but was scared by the ace, if he's turning a marginal made hand into a bluff or what. Obviously his 'crushing' range is extremely miniscule, but what's important is his bluffing frequency and how likely hero's image/play is likely to have induced a bluff.

I think the comment: "you played it so weak up to now, so you have to call" is extremely legit. Hero's play and image could easily induce bluffs. Of course, there's no way of being even remotely certain. Not enough information. That said, I do think the weak play could easily induce a bluff so I would call this.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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bet the turn. as played, i think you have to call as you played it so weak up to now

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I cant stand these statements - provide a range and plzzzz dont tell me that he ever ever has AJ here. If hes value betting we r definitely behind.


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i assume that you're thinking is that such a large bet is either the nuts or air?

If Villain is good, then fold. Unless you think Villain is good enough to turn a pair into a bluff, but even then would he really shove...wouldn't he just make a 3/4-pot size bet?

If Villain is bad, then you still need to suggest a hand that is bluffing the river...86?

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if villain is pretty good and therefore capable of bluff overbetting with a missed straight draw then id call fwiw. I dont think he is though since he should probably be shoving the flop with most of his draws and almost certainly betting the turn with them unless hero is a habitual turn trapper.

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if i were villain i would suspect he had something like QQ, JJ or TT that has showdown value, or nothing. i wouldn't put him on an ace. indeed this is the reason nielsio checked behind imo (if it was for any other reason, then it is awful). so i would pretty much be betting my whole range that has no showdown value here.

of course villain could also be valuebetting with a set, 2 pair, a flush, or w/e. but i think we are good enough to call

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I think given the way the hand played out villain almost always has either a straight or flush draw. If u think he would almost always overbet shove a missed straight draw then snap-call because I think it is much more likely to flat the flop than a fd. In general though, without a history of overbetting - I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt and then re-evaluate if the situation comes up again. I also don't really understand ur first sentence but the only "nothing" that could be in villain's range would be a busted straight draw so it just comes down to what I stated earlier about an unknown's overbet bluff shoving frequency. I also don't think he ever has two pair or a set (if u do think thats part of his range - then its an even bigger reason to fold).

edit: enough with the "u played it weak so u have to pay it off" garbage, villain is never floating with pure air so just propose ranges dont say gib like ur hand is under-repped - explain y that might change villain's range. In the end itll all come down to whether or not u think he overbet bluff shoves the river with a busted straight draw IMO and i've already given my thoughts on that.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

Please bet/call the turn or don't 3 bet this hand in the first place. Your reluctance to get stacked is really quite boring.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

Nielso, you're so bad a poker I could just stab you.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

markuisis, you should probably be more tricky in 3bet pots with regs.

if you don't think the villain will float with nothing then you are likely being outplayed alot.

floating in 3bet pots is awesome

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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markuisis, you should probably be more tricky in 3bet pots with regs.

if you don't think the villain will float with nothing then you are likely being outplayed alot.

floating in 3bet pots is awesome

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floating on this board is gib, there r so many draws/made hands that r in hero's range that hell be jamming the turn with IMO and if villain was floating and he gets checked to on a scare card like an ace - he would almost certainly bet it to fold out a pair of kings, pocket queens, jacks, tens etc.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

I like it if you call river. Yeah eh will have AK sometimes, but you can't fold here as the hand is top of your range and hence folding would be exploitable.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

question: why were you going into this river planning to check/fold?

also, i don't mind a turn check at all (if you were planning to crai), but once the turn checks through, i'm value betting this river.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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question: why were you going into this river planning to check/fold?

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ESP obv.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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I like it if you call river. Yeah eh will have AK sometimes, but you can't fold here as the hand is top of your range and hence folding would be exploitable.

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exploitable by who? ppl who know what we folded? our line looks so weak that hes def not going to think we layed down a big hand and even if he did and even if he started trying to run us over - u could just adjust his range accordingly. But, just cause our line looks weaker than our hand actually is, does not by any means imply u have to call an overbet shove when a flush hits. I think its also very unlikely villain checks behind two pair or better on the turn, so like i said, hes mostly likely drawing and I'd fold this river to an unknown's first overbet. It seems like ppl r just spewing terms like under-repped or exploitable etc. when really the only thing that matters is villain's range.
Plz propose some plausible hands that we beat and I think ull find that itll just come down to what i stated earlier about whether or not he would overbet bluff a busted straight draw enough of the time to make calling profitable.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

Exploitable by anybody who's even remotely capable of picking up on tendencies. Hero's hand is the nut single pair hand - and he said he planned to check/fold the river. Meaning he's giving villain credit for two pair or better after villain's incredibly strong line of calling a cbet and checking behind on the turn. That is called playing weak tight. It's not uncommon, it's easy to pick up on, and very easy to exploit.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

why don't you bet the turn and you wouldn't have the river tough decision since after the turn bet you are committed

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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Exploitable by anybody who's even remotely capable of picking up on tendencies. Hero's hand is the nut single pair hand - and he said he planned to check/fold the river. Meaning he's giving villain credit for two pair or better after villain's incredibly strong line of calling a cbet and checking behind on the turn. That is called playing weak tight, and it's not uncommon and easy to pick up on.

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If u think that sum1 is running u over than simply adjust his range accordingly. Just cause villain wasn't betting and raising the flop and turn doesn't mean he can't have a very strong hand with that river card obviously so just closing ur eyes and throwing around these useless statements like "TP in a 3bet pot AND its under-repped = snap call", even if its an overbet shove on a flush completing river and a line which looks an awful lot like a flush draw. Again, provide hands which villain might have, here r a couple of assumptions I made in deciding that villain is almost always drawing - he didnt raise flop or bet turn on a very wet board so its unlikely he has a strong hand, he wouldnt overbet shove a hand like KQ on the river here AND it is very very unlikely that he floats this flop, but.... if he did happen to do it he would almost certaintly bet the turn.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

markuisis, when your standard play is to cbet then check the turn and check/fold the river in reraised pots with the nut single pair hand, you are already getting run over by most players standard play already. They don't have to go wild to exploit that sort of play.

And you are really just completely wrong about people's play in reraised pots, and are likely making some huge mistakes in them. People do float, they do make plays, they are not going to just blindly instabluff at the ace without the initiative 100% because "hey it's a scare card" - most players at least take the time to ask themselves what they're representing and what is hero's range, etc.. And how the river would help define the hands and influence the profitability of bluffing, etc..

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

i insta call this i dont know

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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markuisis, when your standard play is to cbet then check the turn and check/fold the river in reraised pots with the nut single pair hand, you are already getting run over by most players standard play already. They don't have to go wild to exploit that sort of play.

And you are really just completely wrong about people's play in reraised pots, and are likely making some huge mistakes in them. People do float, they do make plays, they are not going to just blindly instabluff at the ace without the initiative 100% because "hey it's a scare card" - most players at least take the time to ask themselves what they're representing and what is hero's range, etc.. And how the river would help define the hands and influence the profitability of bluffing, etc..

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I clearly said id get it in on the turn so ur first paragraph is useless. And to think that sum1 both floats a very wet board like this AND doesnt bet the turn when he could rep AK, the NFD etc. is ridiculous (not that most ppl care what they r repping at these stakes or that most ppl in hero's shoes r going to call off their stack with QQ here even if the line doesnt make sense - which it does). IF he did happen to float this flop (probably not profitable or likely for an unknown) then he is almost always betting that turn and if he isnt that it is almost certainly not profitable to float. But anyways, all these useless statements/misinterpretations such as saying that I take this line routinely and get run over consistently r derailing the actual question. According to u and some others, villain most likely floated a ridiculously wet board, didn't bet a scary turn and overbet bluff shoved the river. Or....he somehow got to the turn with a hand like AJ or A10 and instead of betting the turn on a dangerous board - overbet shoves a flushed river. As ridiculous as these assumptions r, we HAVE to call because our hand is under-repped or he'll know we folded AQ here somehow and run us over everytime we meet him right??? You have yet to offer a range btw, just making useless statements like "nut single-pair hand" or "this is exploitable". Just to put things into perspective - I think its pretty clear our hand equals a bluff catcher on the river and the only hand I c getting to the river and bluffing is a busted straight draw - and i already explained that I think its more likely that an unknown's first overbet shove is the flush rather than a straight.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

The only logic I can see for checking twice WHEN YOU MAKE YOUR HAND is to induce a bluff and you succeeded. If you don't know how respond to this push, then you should have bet the river.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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i insta call this i dont know

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Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

he's probably shoving his entire range here if he has a brain. stove his range for getting to and calling flop for academic purposes and then click call because i can already tell you you have odds to call against that range.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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he's probably shoving his entire range here if he has a brain. stove his range for getting to and calling flop for academic purposes and then click call because i can already tell you you have odds to call against that range.

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Terp is right here,this is really weak tight

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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he's probably shoving his entire range here if he has a brain. stove his range for getting to and calling flop for academic purposes and then click call because i can already tell you you have odds to call against that range.

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Terp is right here,this is really weak tight

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How is he right? I'm pretty sure his post was a level or something, so villain is shoving stuff like TT, JJ, QQ, KQ, KJ, 109s, J9s etc...? cause those r all part of his flop calling range.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

Yeh this is a [censored] river. [censored] board the whole way, and personally I think you have to fold this. I think the turn c/r you planned is definitely the best option against this type of opponent. His stats don't seem too aggressive but people seem to overplay their hands in 3bet pots. I don't see what you are beating here imo and this is fold.

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

wtf bet turn!
wtf shove river!
wtf since you didnt, call river
easy

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

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he's probably shoving his entire range here if he has a brain. stove his range for getting to and calling flop for academic purposes and then click call because i can already tell you you have odds to call against that range.

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Are you high?

edit: nevermind you qualified your statement with the exemption that a brain needs to exist, which is not the case with 99.9999999% of 1/2 players so this is really just a post that should be remembered in other threads [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: FT200 Puking in the river
 

Bet the turn, and if he calls, c/f river