At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

At the tables I play, any raised pot pre-flop will usually have a good 8 to 10 small bets in it before it comes around to me in the BB. Are there any two cards I wouldn't call one small bet with if I'm reasonably sure it won't be raised again after I call?

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

pig4bill-

Getting 8 or 10 to 1 I would play any hand. I might even play a 9 or better if that was my only card

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

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I might even play a 9 or better if that was my only card

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I hate the hands I only get dealt one card, I ususally just fold, even if it's a K or even A. Is this a mistake?

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

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pig4bill-

Getting 8 or 10 to 1 I would play any hand. I might even play a 9 or better if that was my only card

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I'm reasonably certain this is bad.

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

Dude and Justin,

With just one card you can always just play the board for your kicker. I'm not sure but I think that's a pretty good strategy. Don't forget the metagame effect when you own someone with only half the cards.

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

Ray Zee had a great post several years back where he went completely against the grain and defended playing Q5o to a multiway raise in the big Blind. I don't have time to find it right now, but the gist was this:

1) Getting 10-1 how much the worst of it can you really have?

2) When you refuse to gamble in spots like this, even the bad players notice and refuse to pay you off as much as they do others. they will still give you a bet here and there when dominated, but they certainly won't just pay off with the more marginal stuff others seem to make from them. The best players know how to become one of the guys, and in turn get paid off. He went on to say that's why he and others like him walk away from great games with a ton of chips, and others simply had marginal scores.

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

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Getting 8 or 10 to 1 I would play any hand. I might even play a 9 or better if that was my only card

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This is bad, your money odds are better, but your winning odds are now worse due to all of the extra hands in play. Also don't forget that you'll be out of position. You should definitely open up, but not to the point where you're playing any 2.

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

Then my original question remains - at what point would you fold? 10-2? 8-4o? 5-2o?

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

10-2 has to be below rock bottom. What do you do with a 10-9-4 flop? Waste a few chips before you muck, is what you do. There is no good way to play this hand out of position post flop, unless you flop a monster. This forum needs someone to say it-save some chips for later!

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

Right, you check-muck that flop. The point to calling one small bet pre-flop is the hope of a monster flop, not a mediocre one.

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

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Don't forget the metagame effect when you own someone with only half the cards.

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Well, regardless of the number of cards you get dealt, people seem to go on tilt when they lose you go, Patrick. I don't know if there's anything you can do to avoid it even if you wanted to, because when I was 8 and played in my dad's regular game, I used to get the same reaction. I used to try to explain to them that of course they lose to me, I'm just more experienced and smarter, but that didn't help at all.

Anyway, just get used to people hating you for what you are - a damn fine poker player.

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

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2) When you refuse to gamble in spots like this, even the bad players notice and refuse to pay you off as much as they do others. they will still give you a bet here and there when dominated, but they certainly won't just pay off with the more marginal stuff others seem to make from them. The best players know how to become one of the guys, and in turn get paid off. He went on to say that's why he and others like him walk away from great games with a ton of chips, and others simply had marginal scores.

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I would not be surprised if Ray said something like this. I would be very surprised if this is still applicable to today's games. In the games I play in, people just don't give a rat's ass. They are like "okay, lets crack the tight guys aces" and 6 people coldcall anyway when I raise the first hand in 2 hours.

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

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Right, you check-muck that flop. The point to calling one small bet pre-flop is the hope of a monster flop, not a mediocre one.

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Monster flops don't happen often enough and with T2 you basically need to flop trip 2s or a boat. At no point will I call with this hand from the BB.

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

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2) When you refuse to gamble in spots like this, even the bad players notice and refuse to pay you off as much as they do others. they will still give you a bet here and there when dominated, but they certainly won't just pay off with the more marginal stuff others seem to make from them. The best players know how to become one of the guys, and in turn get paid off. He went on to say that's why he and others like him walk away from great games with a ton of chips, and others simply had marginal scores.

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I would not be surprised if Ray said something like this. I would be very surprised if this is still applicable to today's games. In the games I play in, people just don't give a rat's ass. They are like "okay, lets crack the tight guys aces" and 6 people coldcall anyway when I raise the first hand in 2 hours.

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Hi Surfdoc,

Your talking about preflop calls. The guys your talking about are making these preflop calls because they want to play. I'm talking about post flop. If you want to get paid off with some of your marginal hands and up, you need to make a point of not being known as the guy that refuses to gamble without the absolute best of it ever. That's Ray's point, and it's applicable in todays games.

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

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10-2 has to be below rock bottom. What do you do with a 10-9-4 flop? Waste a few chips before you muck, is what you do. There is no good way to play this hand out of position post flop, unless you flop a monster. This forum needs someone to say it-save some chips for later!

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You don't think a bunch of guys calling preflop with any two will pay you off with a med pair like 7's? You don't think the pot is big enough here with 5 BB's in it that you could consider check raising a late position player and squeezing out over cards? What if you check and it's 3 bets back to you, can't you get away from it? This hand is easier to play in early position than in middle position.

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

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Then my original question remains - at what point would you fold? 10-2? 8-4o? 5-2o?

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The answer to your question is dependent more upon the players in the game and their post flop tendancies, and has less to do with an absolute generic cut-off point. If You had two guys who fold everytime they miss the flop, who cares what two cards you have. If you get guys who are super aggresive and play reasonably well post-flop, then you need to fold alot more hands than just big little or big medium.

Re: At what point do you not call from the BB pre-flop?
 

Good point. In my hypothetical hand we've got 6 to the flop. Typically we'd then have 3 or 4 to the turn unless it was 3 bet or capped on the flop.