Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
I just couldn't see any way of playing this situation profitably. Important note, player is playing 40/2 over 100+ hands.

PokerStars Game #13554572479: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/11/30 - 00:51:48 (ET)
Table 'Klare' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: pffffft ($10.60 in chips)
Seat 2: llGtphshll ($24.95 in chips)
Seat 3: bccanada1963 ($57.60 in chips)
Seat 4: chucky11x ($48.90 in chips)
Seat 5: Johnny7Cash ($25.20 in chips)
Seat 6: djjeffypoo ($13.30 in chips)
Seat 7: X-Ray 23 ($19.90 in chips)
Seat 9: Aggie_84 ($14.75 in chips)
pffffft: posts small blind $0.10
llGtphshll: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to llGtphshll [Kh Ad]
bccanada1963: folds
chucky11x: folds
Johnny7Cash: raises $1 to $1.25
djjeffypoo: folds
X-Ray 23: folds
Aggie_84: folds
pffffft: folds
llGtphshll: folds
Johnny7Cash collected $0.60 from pot
Johnny7Cash: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.60 | Rake $0
Seat 1: pffffft (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: llGtphshll (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: bccanada1963 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: chucky11x folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Johnny7Cash collected ($0.60)
Seat 6: djjeffypoo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: X-Ray 23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Aggie_84 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

What the?

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

I don't get it. Where is the lack of potential profit by calling?

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

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I don't get it. Where is the lack of potential profit by calling?

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try again

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

I do remember a thread a while ago where people said it is ok to fold AK preflop to a single raise. These people are retarded. He's [censored] 40/2. You have the stone cold nuts.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

This brother is raising 2% of his hands!! OBV if he wasn't a super-nit I'd repop him here, but it almost seems like AQ- isn't even in his range...

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

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This brother is raising 2% of his hands!! OBV if he wasn't a super-nit I'd repop him here, but it almost seems like AQ- isn't even in his range...

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I think you need to look the word nit up. A 40/2 is not a nit, he's a fish.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

I'm running at ~ 8 BB/100 over 25,000 hands so I'm not a complete idiot (imo)... I'd really like to get some more input than "wtf". Obv this isn't a major leak in my game as this type of situation against a crazy 40/2 rarely occurs, but I'd just like to hear how others would approach this hand from a theoretical perspective.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

It's not the most ridiculous fold of all time, but it certainly looks like you are playing w/ scared money

BTW is that 8 BB/100 or 8 PTBB/100?

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

Ok, 40/2 tells me he's very loose and passive, but to GTFO when he raises PF.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

limit standard.. ptbb i believe is the right term

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

In short, 100 hands is MUCH too small a samplesize to even consider doing anything as ridiculous as this.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

ok, well I can't remember the last time I raised only 2 out of 100 hands but maybe you're right. I'm going off the information I have, and I don't think that says it's "ridiculous" to toss ace high here OOP.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

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ok, well I can't remember the last time I raised only 2 out of 100 hands but maybe you're right. I'm going off the information I have, and I don't think that says it's "ridiculous" to toss ace high here OOP.

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I'm pretty sure that I did it today at some point and I'm looser than you by far.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

1 out of 50 hands? Once every 6 rounds? C'mon, you've got to be slightly exaggerating...

He raised from early-mid position (5x also) and he's raised 2 out of ~ last 120 hands or something. I'd put him on AK, AA-TT, maybe 99. Perhaps I can squeeze a little profit out of him if an ace or king flops, but you'd think that would be countered by those few times he's got aces or kings and a king flops, or jacks on an AJ5 flop...

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

It just kind of shocks me how much people over value AK, and I love it when guys stack off to me at full ring with AK against my big pair... It's the SITUATION that leads me to think a fold might be correct. Mind you, I usually play AK fast and aggressive... but player dependency... come one..

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

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but player dependency... come one..

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I know. This is why you should 3bet here.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

OK, I three bet, he's got the range I gave him. Random flop, I miss 2/3 of the time obv. and continuation bet. He's calling here the majority of the time and I'm now lost. Keep in mind he's almost certainly calling my three bet, if not 4-betting himself, and I'm not getting any action on a flop I hit unless we're chopping or he's got me CRUSHED. This is definately negative G-Bucks. I like G-Bucks.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

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OK, I three bet, he's got the range I gave him. Random flop, I miss 2/3 of the time obv. and continuation bet. He's calling here the majority of the time and I'm now lost. Keep in mind he's almost certainly calling my three bet, if not 4-betting himself, and I'm not getting any action on a flop I hit unless we're chopping or he's got me CRUSHED. This is definately negative G-Bucks. I like G-Bucks.

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well, I like $$$ so thats why I take the actions I do.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

You should reraise here. I'd make it something like $3.5

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

I'd love to be convinced otherwise with a little logic and maybe even, dare I say, math but I'm not really hearing any explanations or insight, just "wtf", "ban", et cetera.

Let's ASSUME opponents range is AA-99, AK, and AQs. Now should I be reraising AK here? Mind you, this is 25NL and villian is a typical calling station.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

hmmm call atleast..

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

Curiosity question: To all the people saying to reraise, would you also reraise if he was 40/2 over 1000 hands? (This is hypothetical situation, you've never seen him show down any of the hands he raised with) If so, why? If not, why?

I feel like OP is being treated unfairly here. Nobody has given him an explanation. Telling someone to do something won't help them learn why they're supposed to do it. I believe there are valid reasons for reraising, but not one person has mentioned any of them. "Liking money" and "ZOMG IT'S ACE KING!" are not valid explanations.

Example of an Explanation:
Although you would expect 40/2 's to raise only the nuts preflop, it so happens that a lot of them limp Aces and Kings and choose to raise every once in a while with some dopey hands.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

llHessll, it is okay, most of the time advice on here is bad.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

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In short, 100 hands is MUCH too small a samplesize to even consider doing anything as ridiculous as this.

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Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

Does anyone know what his range is? What are the top 2% of hands? I don't feel like working this out, but my guess is that it is limited to AAKKQQAK, and maybe JJ. AK has poor equity against this range, so calling is pretty bad. Since he plays 40% of his hands, he's a calling station so you have very little fold equity against JJQQAK. Folding might be best. The fact that you only have a 100 hand sample does not justify dismissing the data; he might actually even be tighter than this!

Oh, and if you think I'm a nit by saying this, you're wrong. I run 19/13. This is simply an exercise in math. Unless his range includes TT and AQ, then I don't see a problem with a fold.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

2% is pretty close to QQ+ AKs

then again its pretty easy to go 500 hands without getting a single one of them

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

I think you should at least call this. What is his AF? If he has QQ and whiffs is he going to check/fold? Maybe u at least get a c-bet from him out of it.

If he's super aggro and will get a bunch of bets in with QQ on an A high flop, then it's a call because you get paid off when u hit.

I guess if he's super tight postflop and just check/folds if u hit you won't make money. If he's a really good player maybe you won't make money.

But he's 40/2. He's obviously not good. You're telling me there's no way u can extract any value postflop against this guy? That's all i'm wondering

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

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He raised from early-mid position (5x also) and he's raised 2 out of ~ last 120 hands or something. I'd put him on AK, AA-TT, maybe 99. Perhaps I can squeeze a little profit out of him if an ace or king flops, but you'd think that would be countered by those few times he's got aces or kings and a king flops, or jacks on an AJ5 flop...

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You have 41% equity vs. that range, and you're folding AK for 5BBs to a donk when you have position on him? Do you know how easily most people like him stack off? Your implied odds are great. You should be calling or raising him in this situation with any pair and some unpaired hands as well.

Oh and also, his 2% PFR% doesn't necessarily mean he's only raising the top 2% of hands. Donks love limping AA-QQ, AK, etc.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

wait..what?

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

If I am not mistaken hero is in bb so yeah folding is meah its probably better than calling and c/f the flop if no A/K hit, still I like to repop here so raise>fold>call

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

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If I am not mistaken hero is in bb

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Oh. lol.

Still...

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

first this thread made me lmao

then the discussion put me on tilt



obviously raise preflop

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

raise preflop is the best option.
if you dont take it down then and there you at least have the inititative on the flop since you are oop. (assuming he calls. (40/2 right?))

If he re-pops pre, hmm, i dunno. calling blows oop.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

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Although you would expect 40/2 's to raise only the nuts preflop, it so happens that a lot of them limp Aces and Kings and choose to raise every once in a while with some dopey hands.

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He's UTG+2, I can't assume he's randomly decided to pop it with JQ. If he was on the button, then perhaps...

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

If you repop it this seems to be the person that will not fold it nomatter what you have. In that case, I always think a call is much better than a raise since we really have no fold equity. If we knew he would fold to a 3-bet, then re-raise it. Also, you can reraise it either way, but I always like to think that I have a chance to win the pot right there with AK pf.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

I'd give villain a range of JJ+/AK. Normally, I like a 3bet here, but I agree with playoffs that this guy probably isn't laying anything down preflop. That having been said, I think it's a matter of how straightforward this guy is postflop. If you think hitting your hand is going to push him out unless your beat, then playing this kind of hand OOP probably isn't all that +EV and I agree with the fold. If you think he'll stack off with overcards on the board (which a 60/2 just might), then I like a call.

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Although you would expect 40/2 's to raise only the nuts preflop, it so happens that a lot of them limp Aces and Kings and choose to raise every once in a while with some dopey hands.

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He's UTG+2, I can't assume he's randomly decided to pop it with JQ. If he was on the button, then perhaps...

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You're giving this guy way too much credit. What makes you think he cares about position at all? If he knew what the hell he was doing he wouldn't be running 40/2...

Re: Folded AK to raise PF (Standard??)
 

I don't think the fold is too terrible, cuz a 2% Raising range is like JJ+ AKs or something like that (maybe even tighter if he tried to steal the blinds a few times to make a total of 2% PFR). What flop are you looking for to get a lot of money from this guy? AAK and hope he has KK? If you do hit your hand and get action you are at best chopping.
If you 3 bet he prolly won't fold anything - and not sure if you can get him to fold QQ and JJ on a flop with no overcards after 3 betting him.