Re: uh-oh
 

<font color="blue"> I think maybe you should consider that there are hundreds of players you have / will play with that are not in the "know" (thank god). </font>

And although pbob would never admit it, he might one day run into someone who actually plays better than he does! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[edit:] And I posted this even before reading pbob's response below! Maybe I'm the one who's really good at reads?

Re: uh-oh
 

Calling is your only play here. Seems pretty standard.

Re: uh-oh
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i folded. as did the other moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

Silly moron. I was sure he'd call.

If Villain didn't show a bluff, though, I doubt he was bluffing. The amount of action/tilt you could achieve by showing a bluff here is through the roof. And it's not like you're going to be making a fold like that in the future anyway, is it? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

imo showing a bluff here would be very bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

indeed. In NL, getting away with a bluff this ballsy and showing it is good, not in limit.

Re: uh-oh
 

In this spot I don't think 3rd guy matters, except to help you narrow down the range of the SB in this case. If SB is observant, he can definitely see the same factors that we see in the MP player... ie he hates his hand--specifically either A-K, but more likely K-Q.

The fact of the matter is that we, hero that is, hasn't faced any pressure over the course of the hand. MP never folding isn't our concern here. We have him beat--the question is is the SB making a squeeze play here against us b/c he knows that MP wants to fold, but is hoping we don't know MP wants to fold! Thus squeezing us out and getting MP to fold as well? Another thought here is that he could be squeezing us out with what he thinks is the 2nd best hand, but one he is sure beats MP?

Coupled with the relative strength of our hand... I see no way you could fold here. Based on our range, the MP's possible range, and the SB's range... I think a call is in order and a high percentage of the time we are going to get shown Q-Jc.

However, I don't think that we will see this hand as often as everyone is thinking we will see it here. I don't see congruently over the course of the entire hand, how a player supposed as good as the SB would of played this hand so passively? If he is tight-aggressive, why isn't he check-raising the flop in a 3 way pot? Or possibly, why not check-raise the turn for value when he turns the godzilla draw?

In conclusion, I think you are going to see air or a strong 2nd best hand here often enough that you can't possibly fold here.

Re: uh-oh
 

In this spot I don't think 3rd guy matters, except to help you narrow down the range of the SB in this case. If SB is observant, he can definitely see the same factors that we see in the MP player... ie he hates his hand--specifically either A-K, but more likely K-Q.

The fact of the matter is that we, hero that is, hasn't faced any pressure over the course of the hand, since the flop (I'm assuming this is a hand played at the Commerce, where capping the flop light is a common play). MP never folding isn't our concern here. We have him beat--the question is is the SB making a squeeze play here against us b/c he knows that MP wants to fold, but is hoping we don't know MP wants to fold! Thus squeezing us out and getting MP to fold as well? Another thought here is that he could be squeezing us out with what he thinks is the 2nd best hand, but one he is sure beats MP?

Coupled with the relative strength of our hand... I see no way you could fold here. Based on our range, the MP's possible range, and the SB's range... I think a call is in order and a high percentage of the time we are going to get shown Q-Jc.

However, I don't think that we will see this hand as often as everyone is thinking we will see it here. I don't see congruently over the course of the entire hand, how a player supposed as good as the SB would of played this hand so passively? If he is tight-aggressive, why isn't he check-raising the flop in a 4 way pot? Or possibly, why not check-raise the turn for value when he turns the godzilla draw?

In conclusion, I think you are going to see air or a strong 2nd best hand here often enough that you can't possibly fold here.

Re: uh-oh
 

[ QUOTE ]
Or possibly, why not check-raise the turn for value when he turns the godzilla draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

because that would be awful. BB ain't folding anything on the turn and may even 3bet.

Re: uh-oh
 

Fair enough, w/o position he may not make that play. However, his flop play doesn't seem to follow a strong draw like q-jc. I saw someone mention that j-9c could be possible... that seems more likely here. But all in all, if he is as good as you say--he could easily be trying to exploit your poor relative position in this hand on the river? Or he could be slow playing a good in this case 2nd best hand?

How long had you been playing with this player? Have you shown down only good cards, played in a straightforward manner? In general, what is his read of you, and would he make a play based on this read and the MP being behind you?