Optimally countering deliberate spite calls
 

OK, so I've come across a couple of regulars who are in almost every game I play and they have decided to spite call me to the stage where I could be pushing 100% of my hands into them and their calls are still -EV for them (and me). I have mined hands with them in and they won't call the average player anything like as much, so either they are (wrongly) attempting to adjust their calling ranges vs my pushes or else they are deliberately spite calling me hoping that in the long run I will stop pushing so much from the SB and the EV they are giving up now will pay off in the end.

In 6max limit I came across a very similar problem when attempting to design a preflop strategy which accounted for the huge rake at the low levels: Basically, if the BB folded (correctly) any hands which were -EV for him to play vs your steal-raises then you could steal-raise with a much larger set of hands than if he decided to play a wider range against you (ie: to "spite" you by forcing you both to pay more rake...).

I eventually just opted to play the strategy which assumed they would always spite me by calling a wider range and overall this didn't make much difference, but in SNGs (where the margins are thinner) having players in every game who have decided to spite call me could be costing me several % points of ROI... My choices now are to simply give in and let them win the "spite call war" by forcing me to push less (knowing full well they will spite call me) or else find another strategy to play against them.

I don't know if anybody is familiar with the iterated prisoner's dilemma and it's best known solution "tit-for-tat"? The basic idea is that if they defect (ie: do something nasty to you) then you also defect (ie: do something nasty back to them) and if they cooperate you also cooperate back (ie: act symbiotically), and it is this strategy I'm going to adopt to deal with regulars who appear to be deliberately spite calling me from now on... In the context of the "spite call war" this can be accomplished by spite calling them back in such a way as to give up as much EV as they give up in their own spite calls.

Does anybody else use a similar strategy? Can anybody think of anything better - perhaps just plain old typing in the chat "you spite me I spite you" or something similar?

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PS: I also have a similar problem with players who try to deliberately sit to my immediate right so as to take advantage of the fact I will correctly fold my hands vs their SB/BTN/CO pushes, but overall having another pushbot to your right is --EV because of their steals vs you and the steals they deny you by pushing before you have acted... From now on if they try to deliberately sit to my right, then I will start waiting for them to sit and do the same back to them even if it distracts me from the rest of my tables (ie: "tit-for-tat").

Re: Optimally countering deliberate spite calls
 

Just tighten your pushing range a bit.

Re: Optimally countering deliberate spite calls
 

Tighten up your pushing range some. That, and have more chips when you do push.

Or:

Don't spite call me!

Just a suggestion.

Re: Optimally countering deliberate spite calls
 

loooooooool.

Slacker, you're killing me with the videos.

Re: Optimally countering deliberate spite calls
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tighten up your pushing range some. That, and have more chips when you do push.

Or:

Don't spite call me!

Just a suggestion.

[/ QUOTE ]

A++

Re: Optimally countering deliberate spite calls
 

this is pure gold!

Re: Optimally countering deliberate spite calls
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just tighten your pushing range a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]
But then they have succeeded in making me give up EV in the long term by deliberately spite calling me in the short term.

Consider a table full of 10 players all playing the same optimal strategy (where none can win/lose anything from anybody else) and one decides to start spite calling another. If you simply back down and start pushing less into the player who is deliberately spite calling you then you lose and they gain in the long run.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Optimally countering deliberate spite calls
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tighten up your pushing range some. That, and have more chips when you do push.

Or:

Don't spite call me!

Just a suggestion.

[/ QUOTE ]
ROFL [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Optimally countering deliberate spite calls
 

Just continue to make marginally -ev pushes if they are regular players. What you call "spite calling" might be a semi decent regular correctly adjusting his calling range to make it -ev for you to push a hand. His -ev call is profitable long term because it should stop you from pushing certain ranges of hands.

That being said it's 95% likely it's some donk calling and you should just tighten up your pushing range.

Re: Optimally countering deliberate spite calls
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just continue to make marginally -ev pushes if they are regular players. What you call "spite calling" might be a semi decent regular correctly adjusting his calling range to make it -ev for you to push a hand. His -ev call is profitable long term because it should stop you from pushing certain ranges of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, this is what they are doing. The hands they are "spite calling" with are definitely -EV for that hand (via ICM; even vs me pushing 100%), but in the long run it forces me to push less in other games; hence the attempt to counter their strategy.

[ QUOTE ]
That being said it's 95% likely it's some donk calling and you should just tighten up your pushing range.

[/ QUOTE ]
Donks are different as I don't think they know any better and I agree that you have no choice but to tighten up, but the phenomenon I was seeing was vs fairly decent regulars who I have mined hands vs and in the mined hands they don't "spite call" everybody.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]