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Assani Fisher 11-25-2007 08:38 AM

Do you call this river?
Full Tilt Poker Game #4290757076: Table Jewel Springs - $5/$10 - No Limit Omaha H/L - 7:30:18 ET - 2007/11/25
Seat 1: Assani Fisher ($2,299.55)
Seat 2: fightingchicken ($219)
Seat 3: maddog8 ($1,292.50)
Seat 7: shoe44 ($617.50)
Seat 8: justnutzzz ($1,153)
Seat 9: HipHopNDontStop ($1,786.55)
Assani Fisher posts the small blind of $5
fightingchicken posts the big blind of $10
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Assani Fisher [Ah 4c Js 9d]
maddog8 folds
shoe44 folds
justnutzzz folds
HipHopNDontStop folds
Assani Fisher calls $5
maddog8 stands up
fightingchicken checks
*** FLOP *** [7s As Jc]
Assani Fisher bets $10
fightingchicken calls $10
*** TURN *** [7s As Jc] [Kh]
Assani Fisher bets $22
fightingchicken calls $22
*** RIVER *** [7s As Jc Kh] [Ks]
Assani Fisher checks
fightingchicken bets $84

What do you put villian on? What do you take his pot sized river bet to represent? Perhaps most importantly, what do you think he thinks I have? It just didn't add up to me and I called. Results in white:

<font color="white">
Assani Fisher has 15 seconds left to act
Assani Fisher has requested TIME
Assani Fisher calls $84
*** SHOW DOWN ***
fightingchicken shows [Kc 8c Jh Qd] a full house, Kings full of Jacks, for high
Assani Fisher mucks
fightingchicken wins the pot ($249) with a full house, Kings full of Jacks
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $252 | Rake $3
Board: [7s As Jc Kh Ks]
Seat 1: Assani Fisher (small blind) mucked [Ah 4c Js 9d] - HI: two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 2: fightingchicken (big blind) showed [Kc 8c Jh Qd] and won ($249) with HI: a full house, Kings full of Jacks
Seat 3: maddog8 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: shoe44 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: justnutzzz didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: HipHopNDontStop (button) didn't bet (folded)

89,873 and counting

Buzz 11-25-2007 10:01 AM

Re: Do you call this river?
What do you put villian on?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Assani - You can't put Villain on anything specific, except that he probably doesn't have a flopped set. (Otherwise he probably would have raised at some point).

A missed low draw is a strong possibility. A spade flush is also a possibility.

Hero bet the flop and then Hero bet the turn. When a scare card appears on the river, and Hero backs off, Villain might bet anything, hoping to steal the pot.

Hero's alternative is to bet himself on the river, hoping to steal from Villain. (But that obviously would be dare devilish). Being out of position, missing on the river, and then checking after you've been betting the whole way is almost an invitation to a gutsy opponent.

What do you take his pot sized river bet to represent?

[/ QUOTE ]It represents a full house, but it doesn't have to actually be a full house in this betting sequence. On the other hand, Villain could have a king with an ace, jack, or seven (especially with an ace). Villain could simply have a bare king.

Perhaps most importantly, what do you think he thinks I have?

[/ QUOTE ]Probably a missed low draw with maybe a pair or two. Possibly a spade flush. I don't think he thinks you have a full house or trip kings.

It just didn't add up to me and I called.

[/ QUOTE ]Tough spot for you. Tough decision. (I have not looked at the results. I usually don't look at the results.) Whatever happened, your call seems reasonable to me. He could easily be bluffing.

Villain has position on you and is using position to his advantage here.


MattS 11-25-2007 10:03 AM

Re: Do you call this river?
First of all I would bet the pot on the second and third betting round to protect my hand.

On the river I would fold. On the flop villain had probably some kind of draw or a weak high together with a low draw. But because any draw besides the low draw has hit now and you are facing a pot-sized bet I would give up here.

rando 11-25-2007 01:29 PM

Re: Do you call this river?
With your smaller bets on flop and turn he might well have you on a busted low and/or flush with two pair. I figure he has a K or straight at worst, so your call should be 100% for metagame purposes to set up similar river lead checks in the future when you actually have nut hands. Surprised he did have the boat actually... PSB on the river I figured he would show a str8 or flush (more likely) instead, a boat would perhaps merit more of a value bet, especially a strong one when AA is probably not in your hand based on the betting esp preflop.

davebreal 11-25-2007 02:40 PM

Re: Do you call this river?
here's my take on the entire hand:

you never raised pre-flop, so villain is saying to himself:

"Hmmm... the other guy is making a small stab on the flop, but maybe he is on the low draw and i have the best hand. or if not i can hit my gutshot to improve".

same thought process occurs with your small heads-up bet on the turn.

No, you don't have a premium pre-flop hand, but you have to blame yourself for losing this pot. On the river, I probably call out of curiousity also against an unknown player.

Assani - why don't you look into converting hands on all it takes is a quick one-time registration, and you can get some nice output with plenty of options.

Amon 11-26-2007 02:14 PM

Re: Do you call this river?
As played, I call here as a full house would be completely ridiculous given the action and a flush or a straight would be stupid to bet on that river. But then again, who says he ain't stupid!?

However, I don't like you putting in any money on neither the flop nor the turn, ESPECIALLY OOP, as you really don't like any cards that don't fill you up.

Flops like these, with an ace and low+flush draws, holding top two, are really trappy - once you get a caller you are usually very slimly ahead - and surpsrisingly hard to get away from once you put money in the pot.

Borys313 11-27-2007 06:30 AM

Re: Do you call this river?
Looks like you did what you were supposed to do.

I mean a hand that could possibly become a flush+low or AAKKK boat would have been raised almost always on flop or turn, so his range is generally weghted towards bluffs

Just curious, what you do if he raises such flop and you have top 2 with no chance to improve?

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