1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

CMO is a very tough live pro from Minnesota (of course). Tonight he's sort of having fun because he did well when they were playing 2/4 and I get the feeling he is letting off a bit of steam. The game is terrible and playing super tight so he's probably correctly LAGging it up and playing great postflop.

I raise 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP, LAG fish 3 bets, CMO caps on the button. Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] checked to CMO who checks (anyone donk there?).

Turn K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I bet, fish folds, CMO quick raises...I 3 bet intending to bet any river?

-DeathDonkey

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

first i want to comment on the minnesota thing, thats hilarious

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

n

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

secondly i will weigh in on the hand

if we donk here fish prolly reraises, usually folding out the good minnesota guy and leaving us putting in 50% of the pot when we are 36% to win at this point. Turn we'll face a bet most likely and call down, i think its best to check/call to try and get CMO to call to make our draw more profitable.

As played your turn play is very aggro and i like it alot against a very smart player, this line doesnt look like a flush draw at all and will throw him off, he's thinking its weird u donked the king when it hit so him being smart he reraised. Even if he calls u down here it will set him up nice for later hands when u have a hand in this spot, i like the line

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

I like the play if the turn wasn't a king. But the king seems a really bad card. I can't think of too many hands that would check the flop, then raise this turn, only to fold to a 3-bet. The exception would be if you both knew the fish could have a very wide range, meaning you could be betting the turn with tens here.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

i think u have to give up on the river unless "letting off a bit of steam" means coldcapping q5s

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think u have to give up on the river unless "letting off a bit of steam" means coldcapping q5s

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I think he HAS to bet any river... In fact, the pot is just about big enough to 3-bet a busted draw here.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

what are u trying to bluff

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

[ QUOTE ]
what are u trying to bluff

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Take what I say very lightly, because while I normally play a very solid/tight game, I can also, out of nowhere, completely blow up in a hand and go off for a ton of money. And these are those types of hands. What am I trying to accomplish?

Well, CMO is certainly capable of bluff/raising the river, so getting a bigger flush draw to fold would be one benefit. It is also possible that even a very good player will have a momentary lapse of judgement and assume anything but a set of aces must be beat and incorrectly fold a hand with showdown value in this bloated pot.

It doesn't succeed often (for me), but sometimes it does. I'm thinking the most likely hands he checked the flop with are a set, a flush draw, or a bad flop for his hand. Now he may have turned a set of kings, but if not, he's hard pressed to call.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

Why would CMO check the flop after capping pre-flop? I smell a rat.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

[ QUOTE ]
CMO is a very tough live pro from Minnesota (of course). Tonight he's sort of having fun because he did well when they were playing 2/4 and I get the feeling he is letting off a bit of steam. The game is terrible and playing super tight so he's probably correctly LAGging it up and playing great postflop.

I raise 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP, LAG fish 3 bets, CMO caps on the button. Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] checked to CMO who checks (anyone donk there?).

Turn K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I bet, fish folds, CMO quick raises...I 3 bet intending to bet any river?

-DeathDonkey

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Looks expensive. I guess you have put him on QQ or JJ, and not the more likely AA, KK, or AK. I think he successfully induced a string of bluffs from you. Probably pocket aces.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

Check that flop = AA or KK, but more importantly, what hand do you put him on that would fold to your line that wouldn't spend 1 SB to try and pick up the pot on the flop?

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

call the turn. If you're going to put a raise in without it, check raise the river.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

[ QUOTE ]
CMO is a very tough live pro from Minnesota (of course). Tonight he's sort of having fun because he did well when they were playing 2/4 and I get the feeling he is letting off a bit of steam. The game is terrible and playing super tight so he's probably correctly LAGging it up and playing great postflop.

I raise 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP, LAG fish 3 bets, CMO caps on the button. Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] checked to CMO who checks (anyone donk there?).

Turn K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I bet, fish folds, CMO quick raises...I 3 bet intending to bet any river?

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it mostly, bc I think he is trying to rep KKK and thinks you are good enough to fold an A. I think the river bet is close, bc not sure if he would call a 3-bet w/ a 2 outer and also not sure if he would fold KQ ui either, but I would lean towards throwing it in in case he has something like 88.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

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Why would CMO check the flop after capping pre-flop? I smell a rat.

[/ QUOTE ]

CMO is capable of having AK or AQ in this hand, in fact, I think that's quite likely what he's got once he raises the turn.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

It would help to know what hands he has showdown when he has taken this line in the past (checked behind on flop, bet turn). Its different for different players, though its generally a medium-strength hand. In this case, I'd say its likely to be a K (in a vacuum) unless he is mixing up his game reacting to your playing style. So I'd say a 3-bet with intention of betting any river is actually a pretty good idea here, because I think a K would prolly fold to that much pressure. I like it.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

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It would help to know what hands he has showdown when he has taken this line in the past (checked behind on flop, bet turn). Its different for different players, though its generally a medium-strength hand. In this case, I'd say its likely to be a K (in a vacuum) unless he is mixing up his game reacting to your playing style. So I'd say a 3-bet with intention of betting any river is actually a pretty good idea here, because I think a K would prolly fold to that much pressure. I like it.

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Just a King? So he 4 bets pre-flop with something like KQ suited?

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

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Why would CMO check the flop after capping pre-flop? I smell a rat.

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CMO is capable of having AK or AQ in this hand, in fact, I think that's quite likely what he's got once he raises the turn.

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I agree and I think it's quite likely AKc or AQc because he has no worry of giving a free card to most hands. It seems pretty unlikely to me that he has a hand like QQ and has decided to invest 2 BBs on the turn instead of 1 SB on the flop. Therefore DD I think your play here is spew against this particular opponent. KK is another good possibility.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

i dont like this.. just check river if u miss

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

what does chris think of you?

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

[ QUOTE ]
what does chris think of you?

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He knows who I am, we've played together before, he probably thinks I am solid and a bit LAGgy (typical). Tonight I am card dead and can't win a pot and playing very snug.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

Anyway I didn't really 3 bet the turn, I called his raise and check/folded the river when it bricked off. I probably should have just checked the turn.

After I folded he showed me the T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and not the other one.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

So the other one was A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? Or another T?

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

TT probably not going to fire again on the river.....

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

DD, when people raise the turn here with pairs or better they just aren't folding regardless if he views you the way you say. You save these move against the grizzly old men, not the young 20 somethings who occasionally play with a chip on their shoulders. The only hands you can hope fold are better flush draws that miss and maybe MAYBE MAYBE a confusedly played middle pair. Sometimes I talk myself into those foldy lines by accident, but if he's as good as you say and he knows you you played it well(the way you really played it, not the lie in the OP).

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

Thanks James, makes a lot of sense. I will say he implied to me afterwards he had JT of clubs ("why can't the flush hit one time!") but he'll never tell me as he is too good and evil at the same time.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks James, makes a lot of sense. I will say he implied to me afterwards he had JT of clubs ("why can't the flush hit one time!") but he'll never tell me as he is too good and evil at the same time.

-DeathDonkey

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Failing to bet the flop with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] seems pretty dumb.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

Nate the whole thing confused me, I mean when I cold cap it preflop I'm betting when checked to close to 100% of the time so I have no idea what his range is after the flop gets checked around. Checking JTcc doesn't seem particularly better or worse than checking TT and what else could he have given the card I saw?

-DeathDonkey

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nate the whole thing confused me, I mean when I cold cap it preflop I'm betting when checked to close to 100% of the time so I have no idea what his range is after the flop gets checked around. Checking JTcc doesn't seem particularly better or worse than checking TT and what else could he have given the card I saw?

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is much worse than checking say T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. For one thing, the flush draw actually has more equity (about 35% versus 25% in the Pokerstoves I ran). For another thing, a bet with JTs has a much better chance of folding out better hands for self-evident reasons. For a third thing, the flush draw plays much better against a raise.

I think you have to bet both in a pot that's this large against loose opponents, but I think failing to bet the TT is like a $30 mistake and failing to bet the JTs is like a $300 mistake.

The rationale for checking TT is basically: I'm not folding out JJ-KK in a Commerce 1/2 game, getting raised is a bitch when I'd be getting like 15-1 to call, I might benefit from a free card and maybe my voodoo will allow me a second free card and/or a cheap showdown.

The rationale for checking JTs is non-existent.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

great post

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

AcTc seems more plausible. when people (good or not) start trying to convince you you were bluffed, it almost always means you werent.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

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AcTc seems more plausible. when people (good or not) start trying to convince you you were bluffed, it almost always means you werent.

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also true. checking JT behind is brutal for the exact reason nate stated IMO.

James

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

i can't really think of a reason why AcTc checks the flop either though, seems like a monster flop, yet the hand doesn't seem strong enough to slowplay.. thoughts?

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

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i can't really think of a reason why AcTc checks the flop either though, seems like a monster flop, yet the hand doesn't seem strong enough to slowplay.. thoughts?

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It's a monster flop to be sure, but consider ranges for your opponents and go from there. ATc is invincible against aces with a worse kicker and has decent equity agasinst bigger aces(though they are never folding). If he can get a call in both spots it's almost always profitable regradless of what they have. The issue becomes when they have total garbage or underpairs that are ready to give up to a capper...in this spot you can only gain by checking because they will think "why would he check a big ace on this drawy board" and consider a call down with the middling pairs or even taking a shot trying to take the pot away. I think that I'd usually bet anyway, but checking here is definitely a reasonable play(unlike checking a hand with no showdown value). The very fat part of their range consists of hands that are either A) hopeless on a flop like this or B) ahead of you. Not sure what the ranges are vs. the pot size but I suspect that checking has definite +EV against a lot of opponents.

James

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i can't really think of a reason why AcTc checks the flop either though, seems like a monster flop, yet the hand doesn't seem strong enough to slowplay.. thoughts?

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It's a monster flop to be sure, but consider ranges for your opponents and go from there. ATc is invincible against aces with a worse kicker and has decent equity agasinst bigger aces(though they are never folding). If he can get a call in both spots it's almost always profitable regradless of what they have. The issue becomes when they have total garbage or underpairs that are ready to give up to a capper...in this spot you can only gain by checking because they will think "why would he check a big ace on this drawy board" and consider a call down with the middling pairs or even taking a shot trying to take the pot away. I think that I'd usually bet anyway, but checking here is definitely a reasonable play(unlike checking a hand with no showdown value). The very fat part of their range consists of hands that are either A) hopeless on a flop like this or B) ahead of you. Not sure what the ranges are vs. the pot size but I suspect that checking has definite +EV against a lot of opponents.

James

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Great post sir. Was gonna post something similar but you beat me to it. Yours sounds better anyway. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

It was a nice post but he did not have that hand (ATc), I was next to him [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I would give up his hand, but its not my place so keep guessing....

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

Bah my memory failing me. You were sandwiched between the two Minnesota bastards but I can't remember you at all. Oh well we'll meet again I'm sure. God what a crappy game that was.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

DD,

I have what I think is a more interesting question. Say you had just called the turn (I would have done that), and then your flush comes on the river.

Do you now bet out or try to c/raise? I would bet out but I'm not sure it's right.

Re: 1/2 Commerce hand vs CMO
 

Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] checked to CMO who checks (anyone donk there?).

Yes. You have a protected pot with the fish in there. Donking into the fish and CMO can at least create the impression you don't want to give a free card to KK or QQ (with your represented Ace).

By donking the K on the turn and then getting raised, more often than not you are up against a range that goes something like this-- AA, KK, AK off, AK of clubs, AQ of clubs, AJ of Clubs and KQ of Clubs. Not to mention a hand like 33 or 44.

I think by 3 betting and leading the river you may run off QQ JJ and TT but if hes playing correctly postflop he could easily call you down putting you on a busted draw.

Donking/ 3betting the flop is a better way of trying to represent a hand that has CMO beat (if there is one)