Re: free will and god poll
 

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But it is completely irrational for theists to believe free will exists.


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are you sure? elaborate.
i don't follow- since, intuitively, the opposite seems true

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Indeed, the opposite is true. Unless of course you meant to say that theists who believe in free will are irrational. This is redundant as any theist already qualifies as irrational.

On the other hand, the notion of Free Will is heavily linked to religions. Most religions say Free Will exist. And the supernatural belief in a God is of the same category as the supernatural belief in Free Will. So it is to be expected that an irrational person who believes in a personal God also believes in Free Will. Especially since included in their delusion is the notion that this God 'told them that He had granted them Free Will.

Re: free will and god poll
 

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uh...you just bascially said "i have a good argument that free will doesn't exist" then you don't make any sort of argument

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I was just stating an opinion.

In every free will thread I become involved with, I explain this argument to people. Those who are both able to understand it and withstand it's implications, usually had thought it out by themselves before. As about the others, it's pointless. So I think I'm gonna take a stand here and not give the argument yet again. You can search these forums for any of the other hundreds of free will threads. If it wasn't me who explained this argument in the particular thread you encounter, there was probably someone else.




EDIT: Oh, ok, I can't stand not giving any sort of argument, so here's a quicky one, if you want a more in-deph argument do as I said earlier.

The canonical idea of Free Will is that humans have the freedom to make decisions that are unaffected by the physical rules of this universe, and/or by any interfering factors.

I contest that from what we know of our universe, and what we know about human beings and their consciousness, this is impossible. It may still be true, since we don't know everything (and hence nothing is 100% certain), but the odds against it are infinitely larger than the odds against the existence of a personal God (which are pretty huge already).

Re: free will and god poll
 

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However, my most fundamental experience is that of free will. If nothing else I can modify images/thoughts that are floating around my head

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this is why i sometimes think that i am God. it makes more logical sense that i invented myself and my world than that i was invented by something else, which was just there.

the hardest thing to fathom about god/science is - if god exists, how? if the world exists without god, how?

if i invented myself, neither the world nor I have to actually exist.

Re: free will and god poll
 

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But it is completely irrational for theists to believe free will exists.


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are you sure? elaborate.
i don't follow- since, intuitively, the opposite seems true

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It's pretty simple really. In a universe with an omnipotent omniscient god, no other being can possibly have free will. This is completely obvious and I won't elaborate further.

There are a lot of things, such as morality, free will, purpose meaning, values, which are purely nonsensical in a universe with an omnipotent omniscient god. Atheists can legitimately claim these issues as there own.

Atheists should not let religious propaganda trick them into believing that they are supposed to believe what religious propaganda says atheists are supposed to believe.

Re: free will and god poll
 

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I contest that from what we know of our universe, and what we know about human beings and their consciousness, this is impossible.

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I disagree. Quantum physics necessitates a conscious observer which seems like there is plenty of room for free will. And we know almost nothing about our consciousness

Re: free will and god poll
 

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Quantum physics necessitates a conscious observer

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Um... You need to do some reading.


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which seems like there is plenty of room for free will.

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Huh? How do you derive such a ridiculous thing?

Re: free will and god poll
 

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I contest that from what we know of our universe, and what we know about human beings and their consciousness, this is impossible.

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I disagree. Quantum physics necessitates a conscious observer which seems like there is plenty of room for free will. And we know almost nothing about our consciousness

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Tell the truth... you're just making stuff up as you go along, aren't you?

Re: free will and god poll
 

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It's pretty simple really. In a universe with an omnipotent omniscient god, no other being can possibly have free will. This is completely obvious and I won't elaborate further.

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it is equally obvious that free will can't exist when there is no God.

if i claim that God exists, and that the "world" is just an arena for some kind of "will competition" between souls...what logic do you use to prove there can be no freewill? i would think the same logic could be used to prove there is no freewill in the absence of God.

Re: free will and god poll
 

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I contest that from what we know of our universe, and what we know about human beings and their consciousness, this is impossible.

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I disagree. Quantum physics necessitates a conscious observer which seems like there is plenty of room for free will. And we know almost nothing about our consciousness

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Tell the truth... you're just making stuff up as you go along, aren't you?

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that's an amazing level which i hope it is. if not then oh well.

from what i know about the implication of quantum mechanics, which is granted very little, things exist as a 'probability wave' or something to that effect, a blur of possibilities, until they are observed, and only then do one of the possible things actually 'happen'

google quantum superposition

Re: free will and god poll
 

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from what i know about the implication of quantum mechanics, which is granted very little, things exist as a 'probability wave' or something to that effect, a blur of possibilities, until they are observed, and only then do one of the possible things actually 'happen'

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random occurences on a subatomic level do nothing either for or against the argument of free will.

even if such random probabilities alter an action, no part of the persons "will" was involved in the matter. free will is a 2 part notion, not just the idea that someone could do something different, but also that the person himself actually initiates the altering.

floating on a sea of randomness is a far cry from free will. (although still admittedly better than a strict mechanical view of the world, where no free will exists.)