4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

I'll probably blog about this later, dunno. For the time being I'll just post a few hands vs this opponent and let y'all decide.


******* Hand 1 ********

Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises</font>, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6.6SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.3BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8.3BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: 10.3BB
Hero Shows A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG+1 mucks A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]


******* Hand 2 ********

Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.6SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7.8BB, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (10.8BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 13.8BB
BB Shows 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]


******* Hand 3 ********

Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.5BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 8.5BB
UTG+1 Shows 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero Shows 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

...

Limit: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.6SB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3.3BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5.3BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 7.3BB
Villain shows 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

After reading those, and drawing whatever conclusions you might, his stats were 47/18/.9/.75/1.5 with a WtSD of 39, not converged yet, over a sample of 125 hands. There have been a few times where I raised preflop only to checkfold the turn on boards like A67x (he bet T8s).


Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, CO calls, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, CO calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.6SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3.3BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5.3BB, 2 players)
Hero...

Re: 3 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

on the last hand... unlike the A2s hand, he didn't raise preflop, which after seeing that hand I'd expect a raise from a lot of Ax hands preflop. He also called down with bottom pair on the previous hand, like he seems to be doing here. I think this is an obvious bet for value.

If raised... hmm... I'd call. He seems too tricky and I'd definitely look him up.

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

I guess I would bet/fold, since he seems capable of calling with a great many hands that are beaten here, and based on teh flush draw hand, i would have expected him to raise w/ an Ace before now.

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

Hand 1: It's strange that he only called on that flop. I would expect a guy this aggressive to raise you there with a draw (QJ or KJ.) I'm not sure how he plays trips, but I think he might just raise them on this flop as well. I'm not sure that that leaves except maybe a hand like yours or a lower pp. Given that, the turn seems fine, although he might just check through a lower pp (which is fine since he has 2 outs and might call on the river because he's confused.)

Hand 2: Just called pre-flop + flop donk bet = flush draw/OESD a lot, even though I know the results. Usually they only call on the flop after getting raised. I'm surprised this is still used at 5/10 though because I think it's a really clueless move. With the other player padding on the end I guess you can call for sanity reasons, but his line is the essential "I don't know how to play flush draws" line.

Hand 3: I play it the same. The LRR is either total junk or QQ+ right, so it's WA/WB unless he has something like AK. I always seem to be WB in this spot though.

Hand 4: Standard. He doesn't have the flush draw because he didn't donk. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I wonder if he donk bets his top pair as well.

Hand 5: Given the way this guy plays flush draws I'm inclined to bet for value here and get called by a J.

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

the screwplay in hand 1 (AK spikes A on turn) gives me a raging chubby.

i would hate folding to a river raise given his erratic behavior, but we haven't seen him bluff-raise the river either, so i don't think b/c is a good plan. he has, however, shown that he loves to bluff, so c/c looks perfect.

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: It's strange that he only called on that flop. I would expect a guy this aggressive to raise you there with a draw (QJ or KJ.) I'm not sure how he plays trips, but I think he might just raise them on this flop as well. I'm not sure that that leaves except maybe a hand like yours or a lower pp. Given that, the turn seems fine, although he might just check through a lower pp (which is fine since he has 2 outs and might call on the river because he's confused.)

Hand 2: Just called pre-flop + flop donk bet = flush draw/OESD a lot, even though I know the results. Usually they only call on the flop after getting raised. I'm surprised this is still used at 5/10 though because I think it's a really clueless move. With the other player padding on the end I guess you can call for sanity reasons, but his line is the essential "I don't know how to play flush draws" line.

Hand 3: I play it the same. The LRR is either total junk or QQ+ right, so it's WA/WB unless he has something like AK. I always seem to be WB in this spot though.

Hand 4: Standard. He doesn't have the flush draw because he didn't donk. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I wonder if he donk bets his top pair as well.

Hand 5: Given the way this guy plays flush draws I'm inclined to bet for value here and get called by a J.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the comments; I was posting those hands just to let you know how he plays, though. The 99 hand I would've checkraised most turn cards vs. him and called down had he happened to 3bet. I just wanted to include more than stats so people got an idea for his handrange(s) a little bit more directly, so that you could form your own read/opinion rather than just doing the chowmeow 46/20 sort of thing.

Rob

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

I either bet or check-raise. I probably just bet because I'm not sexy enough. I think he finds his way to bet-calling a J and maybe even a 3. He would likely have semibluffed a flush draw, so he's on some sort of weak made hand. I don't know if he's disciplined enough to check behind.

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

I think checking the turn in the last hand has merit. You've check folded some hands on the turn vs. him before, and he really seems like a huge donkey with no idea how to play vs. defensive checks.

Either way, given your turn bet, I think you should go ahead and value bet him on the river. Even though he's a tard, I think you have a very marginal decision if he raises you.

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

Can you elaborate on the screwplay in the first hand? It is my opinion after a year of 5/10 that it's not a good play.

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

errrrr

i think you have to b/c, i dont want to risk a c/r/c tho maybe it wouldnt be too bad

hand 3 is less than optimal... just cap it preflop and bet any flop

the rest are all pretty standard

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

[ QUOTE ]
errrrr

i think you have to b/c, i dont want to risk a c/r/c tho maybe it wouldnt be too bad

hand 3 is less than optimal... just cap it preflop and bet any flop

the rest are all pretty standard

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 3 actually occured before most of the rest of the others. At that point he hadn't done too much spewmonkey stuff. So it's definitely far from standard and I was going to c/r/calldown most turn cards but the K left less of a chance he'd continue to try to bluff me if I put in extra bets and also gave more potential "bluffing" equity to his garbage hands. Since I had no indications at the time that he was maniacal, just that he might be a bit goofy, I'm pretty confident my line works well here.

Rob

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate on the screwplay in the first hand? It is my opinion after a year of 5/10 that it's not a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think once he calls the flop he's generally folding the turn a fair amount, but if he checks behind I'll get an extra bet from pairs frequently and the vast majority of the time people don't fold to checkraises in these games anyway. I don't know what in your experience would lead you to believe that screwplaying the turn here is bad at all. Saying that "after a year of 5/10 it's not a good play" generally leads me to believe that you're probably not paying enough attention in the games that you're in to your opponents and their specific tendencies, FWIW. This particular hand occurred a while into our playing together (about 45 minutes) and I felt fairly comfortable that it was the best play to get bets out of him as he'd call down with Ax on the turn, not raise, and he'd bluff that card a fair portion of the time. He also seemed inclined, had he not raised the flop with 66 (I'm almost sure he would have), to call down anyway. He didn't seem to be the sort to check behind pairs very often.

Rob

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
errrrr

i think you have to b/c, i dont want to risk a c/r/c tho maybe it wouldnt be too bad

hand 3 is less than optimal... just cap it preflop and bet any flop

the rest are all pretty standard

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 3 actually occured before most of the rest of the others. At that point he hadn't done too much spewmonkey stuff. So it's definitely far from standard and I was going to c/r/calldown most turn cards but the K left less of a chance he'd continue to try to bluff me if I put in extra bets and also gave more potential "bluffing" equity to his garbage hands. Since I had no indications at the time that he was maniacal, just that he might be a bit goofy, I'm pretty confident my line works well here.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah its okay, im not denying that.

its just that its less than optimal to just playing the hand straight up and capping it.

meta capping is good too ^_^

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
errrrr

i think you have to b/c, i dont want to risk a c/r/c tho maybe it wouldnt be too bad

hand 3 is less than optimal... just cap it preflop and bet any flop

the rest are all pretty standard

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 3 actually occured before most of the rest of the others. At that point he hadn't done too much spewmonkey stuff. So it's definitely far from standard and I was going to c/r/calldown most turn cards but the K left less of a chance he'd continue to try to bluff me if I put in extra bets and also gave more potential "bluffing" equity to his garbage hands. Since I had no indications at the time that he was maniacal, just that he might be a bit goofy, I'm pretty confident my line works well here.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah its okay, im not denying that.

its just that its less than optimal to just playing the hand straight up and capping it.

meta capping is good too ^_^

[/ QUOTE ]

Admit it: you just like putting in lots of bets no matter what (I've noticed that about you). [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Rob

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate on the screwplay in the first hand? It is my opinion after a year of 5/10 that it's not a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think once he calls the flop he's generally folding the turn a fair amount, but if he checks behind I'll get an extra bet from pairs frequently and the vast majority of the time people don't fold to checkraises in these games anyway. I don't know what in your experience would lead you to believe that screwplaying the turn here is bad at all. Saying that "after a year of 5/10 it's not a good play" generally leads me to believe that you're probably not paying enough attention in the games that you're in to your opponents and their specific tendencies, FWIW. This particular hand occurred a while into our playing together (about 45 minutes) and I felt fairly comfortable that it was the best play to get bets out of him as he'd call down with Ax on the turn, not raise, and he'd bluff that card a fair portion of the time. He also seemed inclined, had he not raised the flop with 66 (I'm almost sure he would have), to call down anyway. He didn't seem to be the sort to check behind pairs very often.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Yur right I rarely have that specific of a read; don't know how to argue if you know the guy that well.
I just think the % of mindless "zomg he checked, must bet" Lags has decreased in favor of those that have played enough hands to realize nobody ever C/F's this turn when they initiative. I think betting allows him to make bigger mistakes like loose calldowns, semibluff/FSD raises, etc and I much prefer a sexy vs. "calldown w/ Ax" players. JMO

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

Well, this one didn't generate a lot of discussion. Based on his previous play of flush draws on the flop and his play of top pair in general, I didn't think he had Ax or a flush draw, but I did think there was a good shot that he'd make more optimistic bets than he should here. So I checked, he bet, and I checkraised. It's nice to have this move in your arsenal for a variety of reasons -- it's mostly so that you can extract value vs players who bet too often, but it also gives you the added advantage of showing that since you don't check-call with marginal hands on the river all the time, it's more difficult for opponents to place you on a range of hands when you check the river. The metavalue of it is small unless you're playing against the same player all the time, but it's still worth having, assuming your reads are good.

Rob

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

I think I'd play KQo like you played the K9o hand. If you are thinking of check raising the river, it is too risky if he 3 bets and I don't see much value if he finds a fold(which it doesn't look like his fold button works).

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd play KQo like you played the K9o hand. If you are thinking of check raising the river, it is too risky if he 3 bets and I don't see much value if he finds a fold(which it doesn't look like his fold button works).

[/ QUOTE ]

The K9o is a very different hand given that I have position.

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, this one didn't generate a lot of discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

How often do you check-raise the river like this for value?

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, this one didn't generate a lot of discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

How often do you check-raise the river like this for value?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rarely. The constellations rarely align well enough for me to feel that it's the best play though I tend to do it more in HU matches and in 3-handed games, and less as the games get more and more full.

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

I think someone told BZ to fold JTo UTG in a 4-handed game.

You raised K9o.

Were you trying to play vs BB with this hand? Is K9 &gt; JT just in general in a 4h game where you aren't going to be playing too many players and you're just sort of trying to pair up and get value?

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

I don't really have much conclusions on this guy's river play except that it's generally passive.

Doesn't mean I'm folding anything vs a raise, though.

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

Hmm, ok now I see why it's tough to play that river.

I think I like betting and I woulnd't expect to get raised too often, but I'd still call it, just because this guy's a little random.

Good post regardless of whether i turn out ot be right or wrong, lol. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

May I ask what your main game is?

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

Is this how you got your massive post count?

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

[ QUOTE ]
May I ask what your main game is?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play a lot of 5/10 through 40/80, depending on what I feel like at the time and what has good games going -- I try to avoid just playing a limit because it's what I'm accustomed to, when there are better games elsewhere. Live I generally play 30/60+.

Rob

Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
 

I bet. His range might be call down any pair against you because he knows your aggressive. He pretty much did that in hand #4. This board is different because there are two high cards instead of K23 and the way that board played out, if you didn't have a K you likely didn't hit anything. Still a flush came and he called down with a pair of threes.

The only reason I can see checking/calling is if he's aggressive enough to value bet any pair. This is also beneficial in case he's waiting till the river to raise you.

You check/raised him once on hand 1 when the ace came, but I think thats a different situation since he will naturally value bet top pair, but whether he'll value bet bottom or mid pair is dubious. I just bet out, i dont want him checking it through.