Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

So I traded in my Mazda in April to BMW to help finance a lease on a 335i. They gave me a pretty generous $12k on the trade. 12k was a little low compared to blue book, but since I am an inattentive bum, I think the car was in such a condition that I wouldn't have paid more than like 8k for it.

This where the story starts. I bought the car back in 2004 and through some bizarre events I really don't feel like the need to lay out, I never got the car titled in my name. For the purpose of this story, let's just say that most people would say "wow, that pretty much sucks, but most responsible adults would have still managed to get the car titled in your name." For the next two years, I operated under the assumption that the car was titled in my name, cuz I figured that sort of stuff took care of itself (since I figured someone somewhere would contact me if it wasn't taken care of).

So they took the trade-in without receiving physical title. I can't remember the specifics on signing day, but I probably told them I couldn't find it, but that everything was cool and I'd look for it and get it to them or order a replacement title. Of course, I go home and forget about this.

So here’s the timeline going forward:

June/July – Minions at BMW dealership call me and say “wtf, we can has title?” I decide to ignore these because I couldn’t find the title and realized that prior events were gonna complicate the replacement title-getting process.

August – The GM at BMW calls and says threatening things like “we are going to make you buy the car back for the trade-in price if you don’t get the title to us ASAP.” This lights a fire under my ass…plus now I feel bad because he explained they can’t sell the car w/o title, and the car was losing value by the second. I bust my ass and put something close to 30 hours into figuring out what I can do to get this title. Turns out I need to find the prior owner and get him to order the replacement title for me. After some fruitless efforts, I spend money on one of those creepy internet stalker-type sites where you can buy someone’s contact info and other crap. I track the guy down. He says he will hook me up, but he is wary that this process will screw him over somewhere down the line. So I tell him I’ll have the Mazda car dealership where I bought the Mazda put his mind at ease. I call Mazda, they say they can handle things from there and will contact me when it’s time for me to do something.

October – I wonder why no one called me. I call Mazda, they say guy didn’t return phone calls. They also tell me that BMW figured out some solution to materialize a title in their name. I call BMW and they say Mazda dragged their feet the whole way and didn’t make a good effort to get a hold of this guy. This is not surprising, since it was a pain in the ass for Mazda and there was nothing in it for them. I’m annoyed, but figured the issue resolved itself.

Today – GM at BMW calls and says they finally get the title in their name. They will be selling the car tomorrow at auction. He says car would’ve sold for 10k back in April, but will probably sell for like 7k now. He then goes into sales pitch mode. He tells me he could have busted my balls and really put the screws to me as far as making me take the car back is concerned. He also tells me I’m not legally on the hook for anything any more. Then he says he wants to come to me man to man and ask what I felt my responsibility in this whole mess is. He suggested we would should chop the ~3k hit that BMW is gonna take on this mess, but he also said he wouldn’t hound me if I just told him to f--- off. I tell him I really don’t know, because I am naïve to the world of car dealerships. I tell him we will powwow tomorrow and I will let him know what I feel is fair.

I want to do the right thing here, but I don’t know what that right thing is. If this 7 month lag in getting the title is what is responsible for the 3k drop in value, what should I, in a perfectly just world, be on the hook for?

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

Screw him... the dealership is responsible for taking care of these issues BEFORE they sell you the car.

Their loss

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

Awesome story, bro.

Tell him to take that 3K and shove it up his #@@.

Don't you need the title to get tags on the car? How did you ever tag/register the car to begin with over the THREE YEARS YOU OWNED IT?

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Screw him... the dealership is responsible for taking care of these issues BEFORE they sell you the car.

Their loss

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they were retarded in their business dealings, apparently to their own disadvantage. The GM is just trying to get off the hook for fecking this thing up.

When he says stuff like "I could've busted your balls over this" I would just respond that maybe he should have.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

g,

Their responsibility to take care of stuff. If they didn't like their options, they had ample opportunity to force your hand or void the sale.

They did what they needed to do to close the initial lease transaction with you. If it was worth money to them to follow up in a prompt manner, they should have done that.

I don't know a ton about this, but I've bought a couple of cars, and car dealerships rarely leave a single cent on the table anywhere, so basically I think he's full of [censored] and you should tell him, thanks have a nice life.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

the dealership is responsible for covering their ass before the sale. they knew they were taking a risk (and were idiots if they didnt) by selling you the car immediately. how often does a dealership want to get you in a car "today." they were probably in a hurry to sell a car to you to close the deal and if their rush to get a sale came to bite them, that's their issue.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

So apparently you guys think the fact that I conveniently forgot to return their calls for two months or so is irrelevant?

edit: Not that I think that position is wrong. I'm in agreement. I just want to make sure we're thinking this through.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
So apparently you guys think the fact that I conveniently forgot to return their calls for two months or so is irrelevant?

edit: Not that I think that position is wrong. I'm in agreement. I just want to make sure we're thinking this through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you could have just never called back and the situation wouldn't be any different. It's their responsibility to make sure everything is in order, they got greedy as car dealers do trying to make things happen, it's their fault.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
So apparently you guys think the fact that I conveniently forgot to return their calls for two months or so is irrelevant?

[/ QUOTE ]

usually in OOT, youre supposed to post how great you are, others call you a douche, and you argue w/ them. this is a strange turn of events.

not returning their calls is unfortunate but if the title was that important to them, they should have told you to hold on to your car and come back once you get the title.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
So apparently you guys think the fact that I conveniently forgot to return their calls for two months or so is irrelevant?

edit: Not that I think that position is wrong. I'm in agreement. I just want to make sure we're thinking this through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to your own advice.

You say that if you told the story about the title people would respond with "wow, that pretty much sucks, but most responsible adults would have still managed to get the car titled in your name."

Well if this GM told me the rest of the story I'd say "wow, that pretty much sucks, but most responsible GMs would have gotten the car title before they forked over the money."

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

for the love of god, dont give this guy a single cent. They effed it all up on their end, sure it never would have gone down this way if you had the title like you were supposed to, but that doesnt change the fact its their fault for not making sure everything was the way it was supposed to be before they closed the deal, and their fault for not doing what they could have when they had a chance.

I'd tell the guy I dont feel responsible for a single cent. If he gets whiney about it, I'd tell him to chalk it up to a $3K life lesson.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

I don't want to threadjack but your story reminds me of something that (almost) happened to me.

Years ago I gave my volvo to my sister when I got another car. She drove it a couple years then traded it in at a dealership.

About a year after THAT, I get a letter in the mail from some tow company saying they towed my volvo and I owe $80 + $5/day until I come get it. I disregard letter because hey, I haven't owned that car in years.

I get another letter and so this time I call them. "Hey uh I hate to tell you guys this but you got the wrong guy. I sold that car years ago.".

They say "tough [censored] man you are the last known owner, you owe us the money."

"But tow guys, I'm not the legal owner. The title is not in my name, the registration is not in my name, etc etc why the hell do you think I'm responsible?"

So we go back and forth back and forth finally I learn that it is because a seller's report was never filed (this little thing on the end of the title that you detach and send in after selling the car).

Finally I say "Ok even though we agree the title is NOT in my name and I'm NOT the legal owner and I'm NOT the registered owner, I still have to pay?"

"yes"

"ok then I will be down to pick up the car tomorrow" (Hey for like $100 I can get the car back and sell it right? It was probably only worth $500 or so).

"Sorry sir, but if you can't prove you own the car we can't let you take it".

"WTF????? You're gonna make me pay the bill but won't let me take the car? What will you do just leave it on the curb?"

Finally we call the dealership where my sister traded it in, they said "Hey this is our fault we will take care of it, sorry for this inconvenience". Case closed.

The moral of this story and OP is MAKE SURE YOU TAKE CARE OF THAT PAPERWORK

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

gonores,

I've never heard of a single situation where a car dealer offered to "split the difference" with a customer when someone overpaid or felt misled or somehow something happened due to the customer's sloppiness that resulted in them paying more money than they felt they should.

So I see no moral obligation on your part to make up for the dealer's screwup.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

good point diablo

when you go meet the guy ask him that very question

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

OP,

You were a dick to tell them you'll search for the title and then blow them off for months. If you want to do something to relieve that guilt, that's fine.

But think a little before you decide the car dealership should benefit from it.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

Dear General Manager

Thank you for your call of November 28, 2007. I really appreciate the opportunity to make a contribution to your equity shortfall in the Mazda you acquired from me.

As you can well imagine, at this festive time of year I am provided with many opportunities to contribute to charitable causes. Unfortunately I cannot afford to support them all. This year I was particularly interested in the Liver Foundation, and I concentrated my financial contributions in that area. For lifestyle reasons, I also saw my donation as an investment in my future health care needs.

Though there may come a time in the future when I may be inclined to contribute to the "Pathically-Grovelling-and-Whining-Dealer-Rushed-to-Make-a-Sale-and-Now-Regrets-it" fund, I can't see this happening during any coherent moment, and as such, I just can't place you as a priority on my future charitable recipient list. Should my financial circumstances change, I would be pleased to send you another letter with these same sentiments, albeit on much finer stationary.

In closing, I am honored that you would consider me to share in the equity shortfall, but I must decline. I'm sure you will make it up in future transactions.


Sincerely,

W.O. Title

PS. Thanks for the new BMW calendar. The rustic scene for September 2008 is particularly breathtaking.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

gonores,

How much of a hassle is it going to be returning the BMW after the lease if this goes poorly? More than you can get him to settle for now?

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

articknight,

AWESOME.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

This dealer must have the charisma of a [censored] snake charmer or something. "I bought a thing from you and then sold it for less than I wanted to, will you give me some money? To assuage your guilt?"

Don't go to the powwow, you'll probably end up in bed with this dude.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

The last time I traded a car in I didn't have a title either(lost) They had me sign a form stating that I was the legal owner and the title was free and clear. Never heard from them again. I think it might be their fault unless you did sign such statement and then who knows.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

the bmw guy doesn't expect you to pay but from his perspective he might as well ask just in case you feel guilty enough to give him free money.

i work in finance, and every time there's a screwup that costs us money, we'll usually call the other involved firm (usually multiple people contributed in some way to the screwup) and ask them to chip in to make up the difference. usually these are situations in which they have no legal responsibility, but every once in a while they'll pay, so we ask.

also, even if you did feel guilty enough to ship him some money, he clearly just made up the $10k number. it's highly suspect that a car would depreciate by 30% in 6 months. a more reasonable estimate of how much it cost them is the change in the blue-book value over the 6 months.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

g,

Please find the difference in blue book values if possible!

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've never heard of a single situation where a car dealer offered to "split the difference" with a customer when someone overpaid or felt misled or somehow something happened due to the customer's sloppiness that resulted in them paying more money than they felt they should.



[/ QUOTE ]

untrue. I have been at the same dealership for over 12 years and you would be amazed at the things that go on "behind the scenes" when it comes to doing the right thing instead of milking every penney one can from their guests.

With that being said, the dealer should have insured that the car was titled to the person that traded it. A tag receipt, TML etc could easily have done this. The OP did say that the car was registered to him before the sale and it was not. Is the OP a real tool? IMO, yes.....does he owe them money? IMO, no.

Doesnt matter now but the dealer should have completed the paperwork and held the paperwork or held a check for the trade value until OP produced the title.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

i just don't see a used car losing that much value in less then a year with no extra miles on it either.

But you are cool in my book, and I have relatively strict morals.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

I should leave this alone but there a few things ppl should consider when they think they are being smart saying the dealer doesnt have a leg to stand on.

1. I am confident OP signed a form saying the car was registered to him with a clear title.

2. I am confident he signed an arbitration agreement and although this will never go to arbitration over this small amount of money....IMO, OP could very well be responsible for the loss because the dealer cannot sell the car which was bought in good will off of false information from the OP.

3. What if OP bought the BMW and the dealer couldnt produce the title and put him off for months and then found it and OP had to pay $3k in fines?

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

i wouldnt give this guy a cent. and I would make sure and tell him that i also dont plan on buying another car from him in the future.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

i'm not exactly a car expert, but i don't see how a 2004 would lose 30% of its value in 7 months if it's not being driven. not giving this guy free mani sounds like a pretty good plan to me.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

Based upon my strong dislike for car dealers I would hate giving them any money, however your actions did cost them some money, but not as much as they are asking.

By taking the old and current blue book value you can probably figure out how much your two months of foot dragging cost them. Offer them that if it's important to you.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

cabbage,

"you would be amazed at the things that go on "behind the scenes" when it comes to doing the right thing instead of milking every penney one can from their guests."

Guests, lol.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

That's hilarious. Didn't even catch that.
i wouldn't be giving these guys a dime either btw.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not exactly a car expert, but i don't see how a 2004 would lose 30% of its value in 7 months if it's not being driven. not giving this guy free mani sounds like a pretty good plan to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah the guy's kid was prob doing donuts in it or something. no money for you.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

All,

There seems to be a lot of hostility toward car dealerships in general here. A lot of "F--- The Man" attitude, and I can atone for car dealerships screwing over other people by sticking it to them in this scenario. Thing is that I don't care about what they've done in the past. I want to find the balance in this situation and this situation alone.

I don't feel responsible for them accepting a car without title. I wasn't 100% sure before I made this thread, but I was pretty certain that it was the dealership's responsibility to make sure the title was in order before shipping the $$$. I also think $1500 or something around there is out of the question. However, I do feel bad for wasting their time, after the fact. Bottom line is they did waste effort trying to get a hold of me and trying to get me to cooperate. Do you really think the fact that it wasn't my fault that the ordeal came about in the first place absolves me of the fact that time/effort was wasted in the midst of this ordeal? I've been wrestling with this question all night and I still can't come up with a well-reasoned answer.

I expect a company like BMW to assume I'm an idiot and take the necessary precautions. However, I don't think it's on them to assume I will be a prick going forward.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

They are a company trying to make money off of you. It isn't your responsibility to make it easy for them.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

Hello gonores, I work at a car dealership and I can tell you that this is not your problem. With take trade-ins without title all the time but always take precautions. Number you you run the DMV report on the car to make sure that you are the rightful owner. The trade is treated as cash so eventually if you cannot provide title you would owe money by law.

If you traded in your mom's car for example we would give you the relevant DMV paperwork to return.

Dealerships are highly motivated to sell cars. We hold checks, try for favors to get financing, pick payments and the such. All you need to do for that dealership is to buy the car.

I hope I can give you some perspective here. Its a weird situation but ultimately the dealership needs to act fast to resolve this and enforce their contracts.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

If you insist on being a naive, bleeding heart twit at least give away your money to a good cause. The GM is making [censored] up in an effort to take your money for his personal gain.

J

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

pretty surprised at the responses here. I think a lot of people are getting caught up in hating car dealerships or particularly the slick salesman who called you up.

anyway, the following is not cool with me:
[ QUOTE ]
I can't remember the specifics on signing day, but I probably told them I couldn't find it, but that everything was cool and I'd look for it and get it to them or order a replacement title. Of course, I go home and forget about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

having the title is obviously very relevant here, and you made a significant misrepresentation to the dealership about it.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
pretty surprised at the responses here. I think a lot of people are getting caught up in hating car dealerships or particularly the slick salesman who called you up.


[/ QUOTE ]

It has nothing to do with hating car salesmen or dealerships, it has to do with the retardedness of giving someone money they arent entitled to nor deserve, simply because they called and whined about some situation that was their own fault.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

on further reflection, I don't really understand why you're not on the hook legally here.

example: I offer you sell you my wii and all my games for $500. I give you the wii now and wrt the games say "Everything is cool - I'll look for them and get them to you or get you replacement games." You give me $500. I never give you any games.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

Had the company:

1. Had some agreement as to when you needed to deliver the title.

2. Followed up within a week or two about obtaining the title.

If one or both of these happened and you took months to get them the title then I suppose there would be a small amount of moral obligation.

From your standpoint, the situation was taken care of about 2 months after they contacted you about getting the title. That is morally worth a nice apology.

Re: Moral dilemma/car dealership help? (a little long)
 

gonores def acted dickish here and kinda screwed over the dealer but that doesnt mean he owes them money.