kk hand
 

black kings

5-players, 10/20 6m.

a guy with a big stack, who's new to the table, opens otb, I three-bet in the SB, bb folds and button caps, I call.

9 sb, flop Qd Jd 7s hu

I check, he bets, I call.

Turn is a 2c

I check, he bets, I call.

River is 3s

I check, he bets, I call.

Re: kk hand
 

c/r turn if you have check/called flop and check turn. I would prob c/r flop and bet bet.

True

Re: kk hand
 

I like to bet/3bet the turn when I flop a monster, but there are a lot of other lines you can take.

Check/calling the street is one of them, but not one I recommend if you are trying to maximize the number of chips that go into your stack. While you certainly minimized the number of chips to enter villain's stack (and this is often wise out of position), I think you should have considered other goals.

Re: kk hand
 

I think against an unknown a turn c/r is right.

Re: kk hand
 

I keep changing my mind on this, but yeah, I think a turn c/r is better. Make AK, AQ, and maybe TT pay for a river. But if he 3 bets, do we have to fold or are we calling down?

Re: kk hand
 

I like it.

Re: kk hand
 

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I like it.

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Specifically, what do you like better about the calling down? Something in my gut really wants me to believe its better, but I'm sure I wouldnt do it. Probably becuase I suck.

Re: kk hand
 

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I like it.

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Specifically, what do you like better about the calling down? Something in my gut really wants me to believe its better, but I'm sure I wouldnt do it. Probably becuase I suck.

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Give villian a range.

Re: kk hand
 

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c/r turn if you have check/called flop and check turn. I would prob c/r flop and bet bet.

True

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If you c/r the flop and bet the turn, don't you make him fold his AK, TT, 99 on the turn?

I want value from those hands, so I c/c, c/c and bet/call. If he raises the river, sure you loose an extra bet to AA or a set some of the time, but you also get an extra bet from AQ sometimes agianst an unknown.

Original poster: Why check the river?

Re: kk hand
 

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but you also get an extra bet from AQ sometimes


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AQ will not check this river.

Re: kk hand
 

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but you also get an extra bet from AQ sometimes


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AQ will not check this river.

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I meant he will "sometimes" raise when we bet the river.

Re: kk hand
 

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I like it.

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Specifically, what do you like better about the calling down? Something in my gut really wants me to believe its better, but I'm sure I wouldnt do it. Probably becuase I suck.

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Give villian a range.

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A8+ A5s+ T9+ 89s+ 55+, against a TAG in the SB. I guess he doesn't know that we are a tag so you could tighten it up slightly.

True

Re: kk hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Specifically, what do you like better about the calling down? Something in my gut really wants me to believe its better, but I'm sure I wouldnt do it. Probably becuase I suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give villian a range.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT+, AK, AQ

So check/calling means we get action from TT (though hell probably check the river), lose 2.5 BB's to AA, QQ, JJ. Probably get a bet from AK on every street, though he has 6 outs. And get 1 bet from AQ on every street.

Re: kk hand
 

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but you also get an extra bet from AQ sometimes


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AQ will not check this river.

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I meant he will "sometimes" raise when we bet the river.

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But he will "always" bet it. You earn a fraction of a bet when he "sometimes" raises AQ but lose a full bet to every other hand that raises the river.

Re: kk hand
 

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but you also get an extra bet from AQ sometimes


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AQ will not check this river.

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I meant he will "sometimes" raise when we bet the river.

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But he will "always" bet it. You earn a fraction of a bet when he "sometimes" raises AQ but lose a full bet to every other hand that raises the river.

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Thank you Kwaz. Really.

Re: kk hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Specifically, what do you like better about the calling down? Something in my gut really wants me to believe its better, but I'm sure I wouldnt do it. Probably becuase I suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give villian a range.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT+, AK, AQ

So check/calling means we get action from TT (though hell probably check the river), lose 2.5 BB's to AA, QQ, JJ. Probably get a bet from AK on every street, though he has 6 outs. And get 1 bet from AQ on every street.

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AA (6 combos)
KK (1)
QQ (3)
JJ (3)
TT (6)
AK (8)


You're ahead of 14/26 and 1 tie. You never have the equity to raise here.
Raising is the worst thing you can do. TT probably folds, AK calls and probably folds the river, the rest 3spank you.

It's the same equation on every street. If you're really lucky, you might get a river bet from TT or even AK.

NH Dave.

Re: kk hand
 

Thanks Kwaz.

I was running on instinct for this hand.

OOC, assuming that this guy knows that I'm a TAG:

1) What range should he cap with PF?

2) What range will he cap with PF?

--Dave.

Re: kk hand
 

Grunch

What about donking the river?

Re: kk hand
 

Dave C,

out of curiosity, did you play this so passively because it was 10-20?

Re: kk hand
 

so i was talking to CDC about this hand and after a lot of deliberation we decided that betting the whole way and calling down if raised (instead of c/c all the way down) is the best way to play this hand. this way we insure that a bet goes in on every street and even if we are raised we still have a good chance of being ahead. also, if your opponent has AK, he is going to take a free card on one of the streets a lot of the time.

Re: kk hand
 

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Give villian a range.

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TT+, AK, AQ

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This range is too tight. While villain did cap, many good playing aggros will cap with less than this in a blind battle when they have position. Depending on villain you could add 77-99 and AJs, KQs.

After thinking about and reading the line bakku suggests, I really like his line the most. Preventing free cards and/or a free showdown can gain you most of a bet against villain's range here.

Re: kk hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
so i was talking to CDC about this hand and after a lot of deliberation we decided that betting the whole way and calling down if raised (instead of c/c all the way down) is the best way to play this hand. this way we insure that a bet goes in on every street and even if we are raised we still have a good chance of being ahead. also, if your opponent has AK, he is going to take a free card on one of the streets a lot of the time.

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why is betting the flop better than c/ring it? Also if you get raised on the flop can't villain still freecard play you?

True

Re: kk hand
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Specifically, what do you like better about the calling down? Something in my gut really wants me to believe its better, but I'm sure I wouldnt do it. Probably becuase I suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give villian a range.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT+, AK, AQ

So check/calling means we get action from TT (though hell probably check the river), lose 2.5 BB's to AA, QQ, JJ. Probably get a bet from AK on every street, though he has 6 outs. And get 1 bet from AQ on every street.

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AA (6 combos)
KK (1)
QQ (3)
JJ (3)
TT (6)
AK (8)


You're ahead of 14/26 and 1 tie. You never have the equity to raise here.
Raising is the worst thing you can do. TT probably folds, AK calls and probably folds the river, the rest 3spank you.

It's the same equation on every street. If you're really lucky, you might get a river bet from TT or even AK.

NH Dave.

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Thanks Kwaz, This is what my instinct told me was right and now I get it.

Re: kk hand
 

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Dave C,

out of curiosity, did you play this so passively because it was 10-20?

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No, I've been experimenting with unusually passive lines with my premium pocket pairs lately.

Out of the three hands I've posted, 2 of them have been wrong.

One thing that I have been doing at that 10/20 game, and I don't think this is because of the limit but I"m not sure, is not continuation betting the turn as much. This has lead to quite a few lost pots, but I don't know how many are actually being lost with the best hand (kq, a9, etc.).

Re: kk hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
so i was talking to CDC about this hand and after a lot of deliberation we decided that betting the whole way and calling down if raised (instead of c/c all the way down) is the best way to play this hand. this way we insure that a bet goes in on every street and even if we are raised we still have a good chance of being ahead. also, if your opponent has AK, he is going to take a free card on one of the streets a lot of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bakku, entity is your av, right?

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Is this specifically in blind battle spots?

Is this specifically when you're out of position?

Does the 10/20 limit have anything to do with this?

Re: kk hand
 

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Out of the three hands I've posted, 2 of them have been wrong.

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Make that AT LEAST 2, after reading Bakku's comments.

Re: kk hand
 

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c/r turn if you have check/called flop and check turn. I would prob c/r flop and bet bet.

True

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I like this.

Re: kk hand
 

Bakku, some more questions. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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How often will TT take free showdown?

How often will AK take free cards? Edit: I assume free turn cards or free showdown, as opposed to free flops, does this sound correct?

How often will AK raise the flop for free cards?

Will AK call the river after checking the turn?

Will AA, QQ, JJ, AQ raise the flop and bet to the river?

Re: kk hand
 

c/r the flop, bet the turn bet the river. If he raises you at any point, then call down

David, you know I am the call down master, but I think your hand is too strong to just call down. If you had stats on the guy and he was like 26/6/1.5 over 1000 hands, then your line becomes more feasible, since you won't be ahead as often.

But seriously, this guy could have any PP, and Ace, and honestly, any two cards he decided to raise on the button with. And that includes trash like J7s.

This isn't a full ring game where he raises, gets 2 cold calls, and you 3bet out of the blind, and THEN he caps. It's a steal/resteal "who has bigger balls" hand.

KK is the nuts here, unless he raises you [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], then call down.

Re: kk hand
 

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c/r the flop, bet the turn bet the river. If he raises you at any point, then call down

David, you know I am the call down master, but I think your hand is too strong to just call down. If you had stats on the guy and he was like 26/6/1.5 over 1000 hands, then your line becomes more feasible, since you won't be ahead as often.


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I 100% disagree. Vs those stats the optimal line is to bet to the river and fold to any raise.

Re: kk hand
 

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Bakku, entity is your av, right?

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yep


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Is this specifically in blind battle spots?

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not necessarily, but the further away from the button my opponent is, the more likely i am to c/c down.

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Is this specifically when you're out of position?

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yep. in position you can just call down and bet when checked to

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Bakku, some more questions. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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How often will TT take free showdown?

How often will AK take free cards? Edit: I assume free turn cards or free showdown, as opposed to free flops, does this sound correct?


How often will AK raise the flop for free cards?

Will AK call the river after checking the turn?

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these 4 questions seem impossible to answer without having a read on your opponent

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Will AA, QQ, JJ, AQ raise the flop and bet to the river?

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they'll definitely bet to the river