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-   -   Preflop odds to play speculative hands such as K3s (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=538690)

TheFoxNL 11-09-2007 07:10 AM

Re: Preflop odds to play speculative hands such as K3s
 
hmm i TBH i dont think calling in SB is very weak with 1 limper

lets say for ease that the BB isnt raising PF
you got a unraised pot 3 handed and you got a K3s
ok the kicker is crap but alott of times youre K might be good
and arent we depending on our post flop play here ?
if youre post flop play is good and youre able to sence weakness isnt it fine to call in this situation
you might know youre hand is K3 but youre opponents dont

i dont think the K3 matters much here its just the qeustion if you can outplay youre opponents while holding a weaker kicker

playing it in the hopes of making a flush is stupid

qeustion for you guys would you limp along with KTs ?
too me thats no difference then K3
if you hit top pair you still worried about youre kicker
and everything else is just hoping for flush straight or 2 pair wich is stupid


early stage 1 limper i dont mind calling K3s from SB
more limpers or later stage i wouldnt
if youre a weak post flop player i would also avoid calling with it from SB

Gonso 11-09-2007 08:00 AM

Re: Preflop odds to play speculative hands such as K3s
 
[ QUOTE ]
gonso, what tournament have you ever played in where most of the players at your table arent terrible early in the game when these situations come up?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's no excuse to play badly yourself. If you feel the other players are so weak, why not take this pot away from them outright, or get it down to one or two players and work them post flop? That's not unreasonable and I'll do that from time to time. Or, why not wait until the next couple of hands and abuse them from position. Playing thier limp game and giving them position isn't really taking advantage of their weaknesses.

Second, stacks being smaller relative to blinds is an argument against long-shot hands OOP like this one, not for it.

I dunno, maybe one of you guys wants to post a couple hands or something and we'll break it down. As is I don't think this is a profitable play under normal circumstances. I don't see how you're not going to wind up committing additional chips to the pot at some point, without really knowing where you are and almost invariably having a marginal hand (again, while out of position).

As far as playing it OOP but HU, that's fine if your edge can compensate you for your bad position and weak hand. The things is calling a limper won't accomplish that, you'll be three way and that's if the BB doesn't 3-bet.

Also, for the record, lol donkaments.

futuredoc85 11-09-2007 09:57 AM

Re: Preflop odds to play speculative hands such as K3s
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
gonso, what tournament have you ever played in where most of the players at your table arent terrible early in the game when these situations come up?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's no excuse to play badly yourself. If you feel the other players are so weak, why not take this pot away from them outright, or get it down to one or two players and work them post flop? That's not unreasonable and I'll do that from time to time. Or, why not wait until the next couple of hands and abuse them from position. Playing thier limp game and giving them position isn't really taking advantage of their weaknesses.

Second, stacks being smaller relative to blinds is an argument against long-shot hands OOP like this one, not for it.

I dunno, maybe one of you guys wants to post a couple hands or something and we'll break it down. As is I don't think this is a profitable play under normal circumstances. I don't see how you're not going to wind up committing additional chips to the pot at some point, without really knowing where you are and almost invariably having a marginal hand (again, while out of position).

As far as playing it OOP but HU, that's fine if your edge can compensate you for your bad position and weak hand. The things is calling a limper won't accomplish that, you'll be three way and that's if the BB doesn't 3-bet.

Also, for the record, lol donkaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

no what i mean is that bad players in the pot make it +EV to limp it. They will call a bet or 2 w/ less than top pair on a K hi flop, they will chase worse flushes when you have a FD, etc. If they become the aggressor at any point you can easily dump it w/o 2 pair+, and you're getting insane odds to complete preflop. The better the players already in the pot are, the harder it will be to show a profit completing. Like i said most tourneys i play start out 100bbs deep and all my cash play is 100bbs+ so thats the depth im talking about here. Once stacks are a lot shallower it becomes an easy fold.

edit: we're misunderstanding each other RE: stack depths, we're both saying the same thing. When i say weak players, i dont nec. mean weak/tight, but loose/passive and bad in general. If they are nits then obv just pop it up pre or fold, but ppl who call down too much postflop make completing ok w/ deep enough stacks.


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