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-   -   Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=465585)

jstill 07-31-2007 02:20 PM

Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I
 
start at the beginning I suppose, any experts wanna state they're ranges in each position assuming 100bb stacks for hero and all villans.

I raise all pairs obviously, AJ+ utg and fold the other broadways, then in the HJ all those KQ KJ QJ JT some J9s 98s T9s ect

CO ATo A9s I ll open

button any A and lots of crap, should it be ATC (I steal alot less in the CO or Button if one of the blinds has like 20-30bbs fwiw, thats good rite?)

Victor 07-31-2007 02:49 PM

Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I
 
your hijack range is about my utg range.

hijack i would add 87s and sometimes lower.

co def add lower suited aces. i think i open a2s there. a5s in hijack. a8s utg.

i think at stakes 2-4 (sometimes 3-6) and lower you can get away with opening a ton of hands. in my limited experience at 5-10 ppl recognize youre lite and will resteal. plus ppl all overagg aholes anyway so you can punish them by being tighter.

jstill 07-31-2007 03:00 PM

Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I
 
I used to open those broadway hands suited utg but read somewhere I shouldn't I forget where now.

I forgot to say I raise the Axs in the CO and like 54s ect but again I ll just fold those if one of the blinds has less than like 40bbs and calls alot or the BTN has less than 20bbs. Not sure if thats good to adjust that way vs opponent stack sizes? just what Ive been doing.

assume HJ opens a standard raise what do u 3bet with in the CO, Button or in the blinds, how much does the player matter?

what is ur guys squeezing ranges? say utg opens 4x, one cold caller, are u calling or squeezing with pairs below QQ? assume full stacks and u have postion aka aren't in the blinds. How about hands like AQo AJs ect ect ect...

4_2_it 07-31-2007 03:03 PM

Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I
 
I approach pre-flop a different way. I evaluate the following:
0) Stack Sizes
1) My position
2) Position of my opponents
3) Opponent tendencies
4) My cards
5) Action that occurred before it gets to me
6) Likely action should I raise or limp

You have to have a plan for each hand (thanks Matt and Sunny). Your cards make up an important part of your plan, but always blindly open raising hands like J9s from the CO or folding 87o from MP is probably not the best long term approach.

Now, I understand new players crave starting hand charts. The ones in Phil Gordon's Little Green Book are good.

edit -- I play mosylt 6-max or shorter

phydaux 07-31-2007 03:15 PM

Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I
 
Off suit broadway goes way down in value in NL. At NL you want to play much tighter in EP & MP than in limit.

Also, position is much more important in NL. So much so, that you almost never want to play from OOP after the flop if you can help it at all. Your pre-flop strategy should focus on never being OOP after the flop with out a monster hand. You almost never want to be OOP with a draw (I say "almost" because there MIGHT be an exception, but I honestly can't think of one).

These are my normal starting hand requiorments for FR NL cash games:

EP - Fold all SCs & suited aces. Limp any pair TT & below, but only if the table is mostly passive. If you expect a raise from MP, LP or Button, then fold preflop. If you limp and get a raise from those positions, then fold your pair. If the raise comes from the blinds you can call because you'll have position after the flop, but remember the Rule of 5 & 10, and effective stacks must be at least 80bb. Be prepaired to fold when you don't hit your set. Raise only with premium pairs JJ and up, and AK. Maybe AQ if the table is passive.

MP - Raise all pairs 99 & up. Limp with smaller pairs, SCs 65 and up & suited aces, but be prepaired to fold to a raise from LP or the button. Call raises with these hands from the blinds but remember what I said about the Rule of 5 & 10 and effective stack sizes.

LP - If it is limped to you, raise with any pair, any SC 65 & up, any suited ace. If it is folded to you, then raise with those cards plus any suited king, any suited one-away 75 & up, any ace-face, any suited face cards.

SB - Play the small blind as if it were UTG. Fold liberally, because it just sucks SO much to be OOP after the flop. If has been folded all the way around to you and the button folded as well, then raise with any pocket you might raise from the button, as well as any pocket with at least one jack or higher.

Also any time you are playing a cash game, you have AA or KK preflop and you have a chance to call a raise, don't. Re-raise at least the pot or a little more. If you are re-raised all-in, call. Don't look at your kings and start to second guess yourself. Get your money in the middle.

And another thing - In a FR game LP is later than you think. In a 9-handed game, I only consider the button and the CO to be LP. The hi-jack and one seat to his right is MP. Every other seat is EP.

KitCloudkicker 07-31-2007 03:34 PM

Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I
 
fwiw i think people like me who are trying to learn nl should play super rockish pf.

as in, play only hands like PP and AK early and middle position.

and i think offsuit broadways arent particularly good in this game. you guys saw how clueless i was with my AQ in the BB.


phydaux 07-31-2007 03:47 PM

Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I
 
[ QUOTE ]
i think people like me who are trying to learn nl should play super rockish pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is correct, but only if you're playing FR.

In 6-max the blinds come around so quickly that it forces you to get in there mix it up with lesser holdings. That's why expert players clean up at 6-max - their ability to play marginal hands well after the flop.

Victor 07-31-2007 05:15 PM

Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I
 
"but remember the Rule of 5 & 10, "

what is this?

jstill 07-31-2007 05:29 PM

Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I
 
Im sure ur basically already following it victor,

if the raise is less than 5% of urs and villains effective stack size call a raise with any PP, if its more than 10% and u have a PP ur only playing for set value its a clear fold (JJ is like the borderline typically from most peoples opinions). 3bet QQ+ obvioulsy and always get it in with AA KK obviously, QQ sometimes fold to the nits big 4bets if for full stacks

imbetween is kinda judgement, how much is in the pot already if its reraised, how loose the players/ blinds are behind and the raiser and how likely u are to stack someone when u connect even when u show mucho strength. Or if ur not gonna play the hand beyond just set value how well u can play if the board comes low and u have 99 TT can u always peel and fold to a turn bet vs villain... things like that.

WordWhiz 07-31-2007 05:41 PM

Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think people like me who are trying to learn nl should play super rockish pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is correct, but only if you're playing FR.

In 6-max the blinds come around so quickly that it forces you to get in there mix it up with lesser holdings. That's why expert players clean up at 6-max - their ability to play marginal hands well after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I don't think this is nearly as important in NL as in limit. Blinds are so small compared to stack sizes that defending your blinds becomes less important. Not that you can let people walk all over you, but you don't need to steal/defend with as much crap as you do in limit. Especially since you're out of position in the blinds.

My preflop chart for 6 max:

UTG: 22+; A9o+; A2s+; 54s+; 64s+; Kjo+; Qto+; Jto+; J8s+; Q9s+; K9s+.
Playing all those hands will give you an UTG VPIP of 25.8%; mine's actually around 20%, because I'll only play the weaker hands about 1/2 the time, like when I haven't played a hand in a while, or I feel like I have excellent control over the table, or there's a couple of deep fish. If you're just starting NL, you might want to eliminate the unsuited broadway, weaker aces, and low connectors entirely at first.

UTG+1: Pretty much the same; toss in a few suited kings, and play the marginal hands 70-80% of the time now.

CO: Some high offsuit connectors, suited 3 gappers.

Button: All aces, all suited kings, all broadway, all but the worst suited connectors, good offsuit connectors, decent kings and queens.

Having position after your blind steal fails is pretty important.


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